Why are you people even talking about this on APC?

They better don't 💣🤯

Nobody knows. They are about as transparent as mud.

I shouldn’t be surprised, but I am a little surprised, that ALPA sends out notification that WARN notices were being sent out the next day and then nothing. No WARN notice, no explanation from the union - nothing. The whole thing is very odd.

The company has a bit of a history of late telling the union one thing and doing another.

That may be the case (and it probably is), then the union needs to send something out to the pilot group saying “disregard, we will update you when we have more information - Oh, and wear your masks”. I mean, good grief, don’t leave your membership hanging after announcing something like that.

Union officers fail to communicate
 

So how many of you have attempted to contact your rep?

l have sent emails with ZERO reply.

Everyone email them. No concessions.

Spoken like the fat cat on top, not the early 20 year old with a young family facing the soon to be reality that they may be kicked to the street with literally no one hiring for their skill set. Not even McDonalds. If you want reality buddy this is it, there is no jobs to be had. It’s this or nothing. The entire country is in the worst economic situation that it’s been in for nearly 100 years and it ain’t recovering next year when the vaccine comes back. 5+ years until recovery, minimum.

A 20 year old needs to realize that concessions will make this job untenable. Concessions will hurt the 20 year old more than the old guy who has already gotten most of what he can. The 20 year old will work more than ten years trying to get back what they give up in concessions. No concessions.

Without the concessions the 20 year old is on the street. End of story.

If the twenty year old is going to be on the street, history tells us that concessions will not change that fact. Concessions would be a mistake for their future just as it would be for the grey hair who is safe at the top of the list. Give it up for this temporary situation and loose it for a decade or two.

Yep. This business is seniority based and one of reasons for that is for times like these. It sucks, but so does this business sometimes. I’m not a 20 fat cat (like there is such a thing at Mesa), but I’ve got a family and mortgage, etc. It’s tough enough to keep it together at
76/hr. There will eventually be furloughs - we don’t make enough for concessions to make a serious difference.

I’ve gotten the silent treatment as well.

With concessions the 20 year old is still on the street. End of story.

You must be new.

This.

UA was fishing EV for concessions even as they were signing the docs to shut the place down. Don't fall for it.

I am sorry, but this lame here.... There are jobs out there to be had in and out of Aviation. One might have to learn a skill set to obtain that job. That is something that 20 year guy should have been doing for the last 6 months and positioning him and his family in the event that he faces furlough.

Not trying to sound harsh, but it’s been no secret that this industry sees its ups and downs and this why folks have spent years in this industry have been preaching have additional skill set to fall back.

terks43, not a fatcat on top. The company gives us the least amount of compensation in the industry for the airplanes we fly. So you want to take even less. Omg!

Again, you aren’t grasping reality here. The pilot groups had the power up until March. Now to be perfectly frank every single pilot group in the industry has lost all of its leverage. I’m looking out for keeping jobs right now, contract advancements are completely out of the window for the time being. In 5ish years time the pilot groups will have the power again, but until then you better get the lube ready and be glad you aren’t one of the 10K on the street with no hiring anywhere, 91, 91K, 135, 121, hell even CFI jobs are going to be damn near impossible to come across, there is going to be almost literally no openings and whatever few openings are there will have competition unlike anything you have ever seen. So take a step back and you tell your new hire FO setting next to you what kind of life he or she is going to have for the next 5 years. I’m assuming you are a capt like me, look out for the little guy during this time. Not just yourself. This half decade is not going to be easy, the gravy train has run out of fuel, and the coal ain’t being delivered anytime soon. You call them brothers and sisters, now act like it. I’m fully at the point now where I believe in terms of total economy hit this is going to be a depression. Small business is completely decimated, Main Street isn’t coming back, from there it’s just going to trickle up the food chair with larger and larger companies and industries going belly up. Strap in this is going to be in history books alongside the Great Depression someday.

You are the one who doesn't seem to understand. There are literally dozens of times in the history where pilots have "worked with management on concessions to save jobs" and in every case the jobs were still lost and the concessions lasted for a decade or more. Concessions will not save jobs.

Terks43, do you have a line as a Captain? If so, have you dropped trips to have open time for reserve dudes to fly, so there IS A NEED for reserve pilots?

What are one or two 4 day trips in your paycheck, missing at the end of the month? 17 or 34ish hours less when you can help out a brother or sister on reserve? Yes, right now, they're being paid min guarantee, yet if reserves are flying, it shows the company that they are needed, therefore less Furloughs into the future.

Go right ahead and lead by example!
​​​​

Another reason for the delay in formal WARN notices might be because Mesa is waiting to see if there will be further government money to
continue to cover our pay for a few more months.

Just sayin’...

When did the gravy train at Mesa ever have fuel?

I would tell the 20 year old that some guys have been doing this thing since before your mom and dad got together. I’d tell them they should do some research on the history of this industry. Mainly pertaining to how concessions don’t correlate to a reduced number of furloughs or better yet an outright chapter 11. I’d tell the 20 year old they shouldn’t have put all of their eggs into one(really lousy) basket. You do realize you’re the lowest paid pilot in the industry as it is, right? You want to give the company MORE? You realize how long it’ll take for you to recoup those losses?

I’m on reserve, in DFW, I bid call me last and I’m still being called. So at least here we are being used still. PHX is probably a dumpster fire I’d imagine with as little flying as is out there.

Yo terks. Quit with your glass half empty crap. Be optimistic. I know my reply sounds like a commercial. I’ve been blunt with the guys in the right seat. Sh!t happens. But I’m hoping this turns around sooner than later. But under no circumstance, give in to the company. Period.

‘you hear this you lousy union leaders that have not said a damn thing to us. ‘

Just to speak as one of these 20 year old guys, it definitely sucks that an industry that I put 90% of my life to up until this point is tanking. Even sadder that some of the view points are basically ‘sucks to suck kid’.
That being said I’d much rather be furloughed and have a side job till things come back. Being a commuter on short call, with min pay and savings drying up sucks as it is, Reduced min pay would quite honestly ruin me financially.

These sorts of comments baffle me. You’d rather make ZERO than temporarily make less? Nobody is suggesting permanent concessions. Reduced credit would give more people lines and have better reserve utilization as well as reducing downgrades. If it gets too bad take the VLOA. That’s more than zero too and you still collect unemployment.

Obviously it could happen any second and probably will now that I type this but is anyone else not dead to the irony that we’re over 100 posts in to a thread that’s named incredibly inaccurately?
I’m newish but seems crazy that union reps don’t at least have the decency to give a stock vague response. Defund the union! Lol

Not that hard to understand. If furloughed you can take a job at Wal Mart or Amazon etc. and still make ends meet. Maybe even make a little more than guarantee. If on a reduced line you still have to sit ready reserve or short call and can't take the extra job and making less money. Take it from someone who went through 2001, H1N1, 2008, and the 65 rule. It is better to be furloughed and doing something else than to come back to reduced pay and still suffer the furlough.

Still illogical in this circumstance. You want to take the other job then do the VLOA. You have benefits and flight benefits and you don’t have to go on unemployment. And it mitigates furloughs.

VLOA is fine that is YOUR choice and allows the other job we are talking about. The OP suggested concessions will save jobs and history tells us that is not true. Full pay to the last day is the only way to treat these situations because it takes three times as long as the crisis to regain the ground lost on pay if concessions are agreed. You must believe that management is looking at this temporary situation as a chance to negotiate a much better contract and will push for any concession they can jam down our weak, feckless union.

dont look out for new FOs like me.. please don’t take any pay cuts thinking you are helping me. I would rather spend 2 years on furlough then the next 30 years trying to get the industry back to where it is today. As an FO I can go to Amazon and make more money tossing boxes for a little bit waiting for the industry to come back. If you take concessions I will still be tossing boxes at amazon yet when the industry turns around It will take several additional years to even break even to where I am now. Think long term and look at how the airlines negotiate with pilots when it’s a pilot market.

As a 23 year old captain, no concessions. I'm not high enough in seniority, furlough might get me or I may survive but downgrade, regardless our pay is barebones, what more do you wanna take from us? If your seniority holds the line/reserve schedule then you'll be ok. I'm not giving in a single hour of min guarantee or hourly rate. Wanna look out for junior guys? Don't give in to concessions.

Amazon doesn’t have a job for everyone and the math doesn’t compute to being beneficial to you.
Amazon generously pays a minimum wage of $15/hr or $600/wk before taxes and deductions or about 30k a year if you never miss a day.

I made 50k/year translating into $20/hr at work.
Here is the kicker, I averaged 17 days off a month that year. Amazon offers less than half that.

If you really feel strongly about doing something that is personally worse feel free to do it, you will be succeeding in helping your fellow pilots by removing yourself from a pilot heavy payroll.

I think that an important distinction should be made in the conversation between contract concessions and a month-to-month LOA with temporary hour reductions, etc. that can be terminated by either party. Not stating an opinion one way or the other but a temporary, rolling LOA is a completely different animal in my mind than concessions.


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I “made” more than amazon last year too. The thing is You vote in concessions to lower the pay rate or change the minimum to 60 hours it’s not even close. You can’t compare what you made during the best year of airline pay to what it will be during the worst plus concessions.

let’s look at year 2 FO at 60 hours. 60x38=2280, 2280x12=27360, 27360/52=526, 526<600. If they decide for lower rates the outcome will be much the same. Both of these will take decades to recover from as the company will always play hardball. So yea, I would rather work at Amazon for a few years and come back to higher income to fly a plane.

I’m sure min days off and short call reserve that you have to commute to will change your mind at 60hrs a month.

WOW,
If you give concessions and then still get furloughed (it isn't different this time) not only will you have to take the other job but your 50K will be 40K when you get called back AND it will take a decade to get back to 50K again. Think past tomorrow.

I would rather be furloughed than any concessions. I’ve already taken a net $1500 a month hit going from line holder to reserve. That’s without having to have a crash pad.

Keep in mind that the vloa can go away any time the company decides to. So, if I secure a job that pays what this job does, I have to make a decision immediately to dump one or the other. If I’m furloughed I have a lot more time to figure that out.

At min credit there are a lot of options to find that will pay roughly the same. I’ll have less than 11 days off a month, and I’ll be home for every one of them. Someone mentioned 17 days off, that ain’t happening on reserve.

Concessions won’t mitigate a furlough. They’ll kick the can down a couple months, that can will go off a cliff that will take five years to get back, at a minimum, depending where we are on contract negotiations.

Making nothing and being obligated to nothing is better than making $2500 and losing the ability to find other employment. That’s where I’m at.

reduced credit will gives us more lines?? Haha haha. Like we have any control over that, or anything related to PBS