^^^^^
This you guys need to stop thinking the old way of get your 1000 and you're out. Please please understand there are thousands of us who spent years at a regional most of us are well past 1000 pic turbine and cannot get an interview. You guys who have a newly minted CFII need to understand this. Go to the place that shows the most STABILITY!! Times are getting harder and soon it's going to break a few regionals. You go to them in hopes of that left seat you are going to regret it.

Any thoughts?

Any thoughts about what? You're chasing pic time, then go for it.

Well, everyone bashing Mesa on here do not work for Mesa, and are repeating the same old lies.
Mesa has the lowest pay, and worst benefits. These two items are huge issues and are the biggest negatives. Do not listen to an Envoy person about Mesa, they are filled with too much hatred to ever be objective on this subject.
There are positives about Mesa, we have one of the best pilot groups in the business, where everyone is very nice and not out to back stab each other. Our chief pilot in DFW is one of the best you'll ever have in your career, management leaves you alone, and the company is excellent about not pushing you to do something questionable. I am a captain, and every FO I have flown with has had previous turbine experience with exception of a few CFI's. Our phone interview is not the interview, ground school, sim, and IOE is the interview. Mesa will give you the opportunity when others will not. I haven't had any horror stories, just people who are thankful for the opportunity. I am getting sick and tired of the lies on here about Mesa.

I can't agree more, I have on average, pretty dang good coworkers. I've enjoyed it here, got some great friends and really have only had one or two issues..

My only regret is the pay and benifits...period..

That's what's motivated me to look elsewhere, bottom line, how does pay and benifits affect your QOL...?

I think people tend to compare pay and benefits because it directly effects QOL and it's the only thing that someone looking outside in can objectively compare. Every pilot that ever flew at an airline says their pilot group is great. I've never once heard "don't fly for us because our pilot group is a bunch of D bags." Have you?

Yes, yes I have heard that about one group.... by several people working at that company (granted, it was post merger of two very different cultures)

Envoy, it's a no-brainer. DFW isn't going anywhere, whereas there is already talk of Mesa getting the boot from DFW. Rumors only, but I see it happening in the near future.

While the upgrade is at 8 years now, don't plan on it staying that way. Our upgrade is projected to drop to 2.5 years, and while it's certainly not a guarantee, the numbers point to it likely being the case. There's always the flow to AA as well.

Do your research, but being from Texas, I don't see any reason not to choose envoy if you get the offer. Good luck.

There is just as good of a chance of Mesa getting some of your e-jets to fly as there is of us leaving DFW. Don't get me wrong, I'd love nothing more than to go back to CLT.

Ummm, what?

There you go... go to mesa... They have shiny jets! Who the ******* cares about paying bills??

How does pay and benefits affect QOL?? seriously?? How about not having to worry about where rent is coming from every month?? Student loans? Or car payment? Or not have to tote around a cooler full of room temperature food on your 4 day trip??? How about you break your iphone and want to get the new one?? Or what about being sick of winter WX and being able to just drop everything on your days off and run down to an all inclusive in Costa Rica on first year pay to get away for a few days??? Actually get to use your travel bennies...

$22 per hour starting pay is deplorable. Even the 2nd, 3rd, 4th year pay is lower than a lot of airlines starting pay these days. This idea that compensation doesn't matter that much because of 1) shiny jets 2) quick upgrade 3) 'its an awesome place' 4) whatever other meaningless carrot, is what is wrong with this industry. When close to $100,000 of education and training is required to get into an industry, we should demand better pay and benefits... stop making excuses. Other places have made decent strides to put pay closer to where it should be, but then there's places dragging the industry back into the sewer.

Oh, the fight it's on in the comments!

Mesa people vs Envoy people :cool::rolleyes:

Who will win? Haha.

I'm sure that upgrade time will decrease. They are saying in their page that new hires will be captain in about 2 year and a half. But always the airlines will put all beautiful in their webpages, wonderland. Let's see what happens, but if that's is true about the upgrade time, Envoy come back will be strong.

You asked for an opinion so I gave it. What you choose to do with that is up to you.

I know and I appreciate it sir!

Um. Take a deep breath. I think you missed the point of Rob12345's post.

He was saying the same thing you are. That although there are decent things about Mesa, i.e. decent pilot group, etc., that ultimately QOL comes down to pay and benefits. If you don't have enough money to live comfortably, you don't have a good QOL. That's why he is looking to leave Mesa. Pay and benefits are below what is required for an acceptable QOL.

I think you missed the point of his post.

Some might find this helpful.

This is APC pay rates and bonuses pulled into one place for convenience. For hourly rates, if there were different rates for different A/C Types, a blended rate was used to keep it simple. Same thing for bonuses.

Every contract is different so this graph is only a starting point. Educate yourself on the different work rules and contracts which can affect your pay and QOL.

Some considerations:
Cancellation pay, DH pay, per diem, schedule flexibility, schedule quality, time on reserve, reserve schedules, time to upgrade, hotel quality, insurance/other benefits, commuter QOL issues, how many commuter hotels are offered (if any), Is a training contract required, etc.

Be aware that recruiters are selling a quick upgrade at many regionals, when the quick upgrade is possibly over. Upgrades can only happen if they can hire enough FOs to fill the right seat behind you. And I think we all see the writing on the wall, that that is becoming more difficult for every regional by the day. So just make sure that if you do get stuck in the right seat for a while, that your bank account can withstand it.

http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/...sjaixzqq0.jpeg

http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/...s8ci4bstg.jpeg

Yeah, what he said. FLOW baby FLOW! Couple that with a 2.5 year upgrade, 5.3 year flow and the best work rules in the industry and Envoy is the only way to go. Don't expect it to be easy getting hired though. They are hiring AA pilots and are super selective. Just ask this salesman eaglepilot if you have any questions.

Until you ACTUALLY have 2.5 year upgrades, and 6 year flows, you can't say that you have it. Right now you have 4.5 years of reserve with no upgrades in sight. Again, until you are doing it, it doesn't exist. Right now Mesa has quicker upgrades and ability to hold a line.
As for QOL, if you have 1000 121 time, you will upgrade in a year or less at Mesa, right now. I came at a good time and upgraded in 18 months, and have been a line holder for the majority of it, and I am a line holding captain now, and I have yet to hit the 4 year mark. Enjoy your 40$ hr...

Ill say it agin, chasing PIC upgrade time is a bad strategy. First off, those of you who have 0 121 experience must remember in order to upgrade you must have 1000 121 time first. There is no way you will get a 1000 in a year. Reality is you will fly about 650-750 a year. If you live in base and pick up as much OT as humanly possible, sure you can there a bit faster. My point is it's probably going to take you 16-20 months to get the 1000.
I seriously dont care what company you choose but look at the big picture not just who has the best 1st year pay or fasted upgrade times but who has a standing chance to weather what's coming in the next few years. Who cares if you get paid $4 an hour more year one if in 2 years you're already bailing from said company because the PIC upgrade train you sought has stopped, and the company is in Shambles.

I'll add this as well. Try and look at this as you would your 401K. You invest in the long term, find solid companies to invest in. You don't day trade a retirement account you don't even let a bad day make you check your account because you know you're in for decades not weeks. You younger guys have to remember this. The hiring boom at the legacy carriers is now upon us. BUT, there are a solid decades amount of pilots ahead you with a lot more experience. Some may not be applying ( good for us) some are not hireable ( too old, poor 121 records) but a large number of us are. If you are just coming off your CFI and think at 2500 tt and just crossed that 1000 pic is going to make your phone ring, well you're going to be sorely mistaken.

Given the numbers the majors will be hiring over the next 10 years, I have no clue how the regionals will be able to survive. I tend to look at the regionals as a short term investment, with the objective to get the hours you need, and move onto the LCC's. It's better to wait for that call from an LCC than a regional. If envoy actually starts to do the 2.5 and 6, and your number is up for a flow, it would make sense to stay for that. They won't flow however if they can't attract people in numbers to support it.

If they can't attract pilots, probably then they will bring the flying in house with the pilots. But hey, I rather wait here for AA, Delta and United than in a LCC. Why? Easy...

LCC guys are competing to get into AA, United (which now 25% of the new hires will be Xjet, and other percentage from Commutair), Delta will continue to work with Endevour.

But it's all about point of views, this is not a sprit race, is a marathon.

Really? Because I hear them on the radio in DFW everyday screwing everything up, and it's not just me. Go over to the Mesa thread and Mesa pilots posting are complaining about the same things.

As a Mesa DFW CA, I can safely say you are taking a couple of rare events and blowing it out of proportion as if it happens routinely.

As a DFW FO for Envoy I can Safely say that MESA does have more than its share of mess ups in DFW. OK so they may be a little less frequent then we lead on, but the stuff that happens should NEVER happen. I get the whole putting in the wrong run way and the AP starts flying the wrong SID (Mesa). That stuff can happen to any pilot.

I think most pilots are talking about stuff that happens that high lights the major lack of piloting ability that MESA displays. For example, I'm coming into DFW and act gives Mesa a vector for spacing. He won't take the vector because his heading bug isn't working and he would be forced to turn off the AP. The pilot actually says he can't accept it because he would have to turn off the AP turn the airplane with his hands and descend at the same time. MESA pilot shows an inability to turn and descend at the same time with out the AP on. He is flying a 121 passenger plane and he can't turn off his AP to turn the airplane.

Let's not forget the wing tip landing.

If I cared enough, I could dig up many screwups Envoy does around DFW but again, it would be a few incidents blown out of proportion. I could say Sky West only hires pilots that murder their GF, then ram a jetway with a 200, or Endeavor hires pilots that crash Dash 8's. While I'm on this subject, Mesa has the safest record in the industry at the regional level

Are you the DB I see wearing a Eagle (Envoy) tie with your Mesa uniform?

No, but I think I'll start doing that, you Envoy folks deserve no love from anyone.

Haha hilarious

When you see that person wearing your coveted Eagle tie why don't you voice your disapproval face to face instead of stating it anonymously on this forum? And start the conversation in person just like you do here, "Hey Douche Bag..." See how that works out for you. Or are you one of those people that is brave behind a keyboard but when it comes face to face your knees suddenly start shaking?

There are a handful of Envoy guys here that are intensely proud of their airline and consider themselves at least a minimum of a step above any other regional pilot. They are AA pilots right now...after all.

Give Envoy the slight in any way in a post, they'll be all over you on this forum like flies to ****. Now, if you were to encounter them in person it might be a different story. They are mostly punk kids with entitlement syndrome who would likely melt like a hot knife going through butter if confronted in the terminal.

Someone is a little teary eyed that they left envoy when things are finally looking up over here!! You can reapply if you want and probably scoop up some of that prior 121 bonus money. Here's a link to help you get started https://www.envoyair.com/home/careers/

They might even let you keep your old employee number!! Let me know if I can be of any assistance.

At least Mesa is in good company

American Eagle ATR-72 San Juan PR 5/9/2004 departed runway
American Airlines MD82 CLT 12/13/2009 wingtip on landing
Translates EMB145 STL 2/23/16 both wing tips on landing
Air Wisconsin CRJ200 MHT 3/18/15 wingtip on landing
ExpressJet CRJ200 ATL 7/16/14 wingtip strike
Atlantic Southeast CRJ200 CRW 4/5/14 wingtip strike on landing

There's more but what's the point. You Envoy guys have your minds made up and I'm not going to confuse you with any more facts. Envoy is not immune to incidents. I hope it never happens, but if it does I hope everyone on this forum will have the class and respect (unlike adspilot and those like him) to refrain from making disparaging comments. All of us are only as good as our last flight. We are human. We WILL make mistakes. We all hope the mistakes are caught and corrected before metal is bent or blood is drawn.

Honest question, are the rumors true that the flight crew were a guy and girl who were dating and that the Captain (guy) let the FO sit in the left seat? It seems hard to believe but with all the horror stories about Mesa circulating around, it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

There is nothing wrong with being proud of your airline. It's a healthy thing but can be taken too far. It seems as of late the Envoy folks are doom and gloom when it comes to Mesa, PSA etc. At least they are on this forum but when I talk to them face to face in the terminal they are pleasant and friendly.

Not at all. I flew with the captain several weeks ago. Seemed like a stand up competent guy. We talked at length about it. He is happily married with one child and another in the oven.

How's the progress on QOL improvements over at allegiant?

Cool, care to share any details about it? Seems like the standup thing to do since a lot of us fly the CRJ and could possibly learn a thing or two about it. I can't believe he's still flying but I clearly don't have all the info, so care to share?

Not sure in which country you speak of, but here in the US, bonus dollars are either taxed at 25% flat or based on your income. Whichever method the employer opts to use.

And I am pretty sure that most FOs in this industry will be in the effective tax range of 9-12%, so they will get a good portion of either amount back on their taxes.