I think I should rename the topic to Mesa vs Envoy Royal Rumble 😂😂😂

Whos gonna win the championship?

Some of the whiners over on the Mesa thread (yes, I said whiners, particularly some you quoted) are not worth the bandwidth they are allocated for posting. The folks I do know at Mesa are awesome guys and gals, and while none of them are happy with the pay or benefits at Mesa (who in their right mind would be?), they are all really awesome people, and I never see them on APC complaining.

You cannot judge an entire airline by the immature postings of a few.

This is the part that's frustrating. We are tearing each other apart instead of working together. We all have flown with someone who is a "DB" in one form or another. It sucks and I'm sure in every other profession there's always "that guy."

The reality is the regionals are all starting to feel the pinch. The majors have a ways to go till they alter their hiring standards. Figure a solid 10,000 ( of the ~15,000) regional pilots current and well qualified, plus the military guys who are also separating, there is a steady flow for the next 5 years. Beyond that is anyone's guess as to what the majors will do.
AA, UAL, and DAL are hiring ~ 800/year +/- 100 and will take about 5 years. As of now, no major is hiring without a 4 year degree ( other than flow, or a few super lucky 1%er) and there will be a total mess at the regional level in the next few years. The wholy owned MAY, be better off only because they have deeper pockets when push comes to shove. Reference endeavor, and envoy who are now ponying up more and more incentives to stick around. AA has just started with the 10k bonus a year for FO's. You can bet they will add more in some fashion before they squander off more FO's. The days of Wip saw are likely gone, they can't fear grenade their current staffing in hopes of a few million dollar contract less. Those days are gone, at least for now. No, today is all about retention. The WO will have a different way of appealing/keeping their employees while the 3rd party comp will have another. The question you need to ask yourself, those of you who are job searching, do you think the employer you seek can continue forward when it really gets bad. My two cents is the larger 3rd party guys can stick around but the periphery companies will be in a terrible spot. I'm not saying it's all roses at a WO such as envoy, and you have make your decision with what you think is best for you and your family, but I'll say this one last time, if it's first year pay you seek, that company that is offering that HAS ONLY THAT, to give. Their full tilt and have shallow pockets. They make their money off the contract they have with whatever company they have contracted with. So, they have a fixed income and cannot eat into their profit in order to satisfy their employees. They will have to do what Republic is doing if they want to continue their survival.
In the longer term we will probably see MPL style certification in the states. But till then don't go to the flavor of the month in HOPES of that PIC time. Like the stock market analogy I used earlier, once the big banks and AM radio commercials push that commodity/security, it's already too late and you'll just ride the downside of a bubble.

Lot of good info here in the first couple rock pages. Thanks.

Question: how is the training at Envoy?

The training is excellent. Very professional, good facilities, and if you put in a solid effort you will do well.

I was looking videos of the facility in Irving Tx, looks awesome!

All envoy training is In House. You might go to STL for the e-175 sim, but the instructors are all envoy pilots.

Not like other airlines that subcontract Flight Safety.

What a cry baby you are.

I'm at one of those other airlines subcontracting a flight safety instructor and this individual is top notch. In fact he's an American captain on medical leave and one of the best instructors I've worked with throughout my entire career.

Don't forget that the 175 is new to Envoy (and yes even Envoy the instructors). The guys and gals at flight safety have been teaching in the 175 for years, not months.

So you've been through training at two different companies and you can claim Skywest has the best training in the industry? I can understand why you would feel it's better than GoJet, but where are your facts that would support that Skywest training is the best in the industry?

I don't know anything about any other training programs, so won't comment on them. Envoy's is very good, that's all I'll say. As for travel benefits, I can attest that we have the best in the industry. We have the exact same benefits as AA employees. There is literally no difference. Whereas others are based on seniority, here it's based on check-in time. You and your wife want to go to Paris, but there are also a ton of senior AA pilots/FA's that are trying to go too? Check in before them and you're ahead on the list. Try doing that as a Skywest, Mesa, ExpressJet, etc; employee.

Just as a side note, one of my friends went to Delta about two years ago and he misses his benefits on AA.

Probably the only thing he misses.:D

I do not disagree with you one bit there

Went to Delta and misses his Envoy flight benefits. There's no limit to what ridiculous crap these sales guys put out.

And I agree. Envoy is near the bottom of the heap on most issues. These Envoy salesmen are EnvoyZombies drunk on the kool aid. This guy here in particular is gunning for Envoy Saleman of the Year.

My Dad had united benefits used them all my life. I hands down love the aa/envoy travel benefits. That's one thing I will miss if I leave before flow. I wish every major did time of check in. My dad is fairly senior and loves to say he loves the seniority system. Until he tried to commute the other night then he was saying all these guys senior to him listed 4 hoirs before the flight and that he can't do any planning with people doing this.

At least with aa you know 24 hours out where you are on the list.

Well if you had actually worked at envoy, you would know that envoy's travel benefits which are the same benefits that mainline AA pilots have IS better. But I guess you have to take every opportunity to bash envoy since they rejected you. I am proud to stand up for the company I work for regardless of the good or the bad. What you do is just sad and pathetic. I'm sure you fit in just fine at Allegiant.

Standing Envoy proud. Aren't all you guys ten feet tall and bulletproof? What's sad and pathetic is all these dreams of flow dancing in your head and you being "all in" with the company. Hey, it may happen for you eventually. Later rather than sooner.

All the W/O's for American have the same benefits as AA. My dad just retired at Piedmont and they had to learn the new travel rules once AA took control.

Well, if you actually read what he posted you may have seen that he said he missed the AA flight benefits. And that was it. It's true, their flight benefits aren't as good as ours. How do I know? Because I've had delta flight benefits at one point.
Didn't you say that there was life after envoy? I'm still waiting for you to prove that true, because all you do is try to tear them up.

I am 293 numbers away to be exact. Actually less than that since we just had a few resignations. They probably just got hired by Delta or United. ( It's nice to have options) I can predict my AA class date to within a few months. Can you? I may even be sooner since they will NOT be stopping the flows this summer due to the remaining recalls. ( this has been verified by the VP of OPS and by a FT pilot called for May ).

When you show up to class, please don't act entitled to it, and actually study for ground and sim. Word on the street is that most of the flows are acting like entitled brats. Who knows, maybe your own coworkers will kill it for the others

I have actually heard quite the opposite. Guys are happy to know "the new guy" they are flying with was former eagle/envoy because they are experienced and respectful. Their comments about the PSA guys on the other hand, angry that it took them longer than two years to flow, is another thing.

It will be very hard for this guy and his Envoy posse to not act entitled. They are so fracking proud of Envoy and AA and the arrogance just oozes all over these forums. I'm sure he will respond saying something like....everybody respects Envoy pilots. Our standards are higher, training is better and we even fly into Aspen.
The fact is, he's just another run of the mill regional pilot working for a dirtbag company.

Entitled brats?! That's rich. You mean word on the "Mesa street?" The reality is, what you said couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not even going to bother defending that position because it's clear you have zero idea what you're talking about and are just making things up, because why not? It's the Internet!

How are those QOL improvements coming along at allegiant?

Guess the claims of the sim instructors over there are false?

I feel as entitled to the flow as you feel entitled to your paycheck on payday. Do you expect to get your check on payday? Do you expect the amount to be correct? Yes. Its your contractual "right" to be paid for the time you put in. You held up your half of the deal and now you would expect the company to uphold their half. But just because you expect your contract to be abided by, you don't run around holding your check in the faces of Rampers, Gate Agents and FAs yelling "check it out biiittcccchhhaaaasss, I just got paid and I'll rrrrriiiiiiicccchhhhh!"

Being entitled to something that you have earned* and feeling entitled for something for just showing up are to different things. If you really do work for Mesa though, I could see how you get the two confused.



*by the time I flow, I will have acquired over 11,000 hrs TT, 5,000 hrs PIC and 12 accident free years with Eagle/envoy. This is different than expecting a mainline to hire me because I got a quick 1,000 PIC and have a total of 3 years experience at a regional airline.

I agree here. WO Flows are entitled to the spots at AA due to arbitration or contractual agreement. There may be a few sour apples in the bunch, but I am sure it is not "most" of the flows. I have actually heard from AA crews about how enjoyable it is to work with experienced FO's with good character that have come from flow through

I'll make his life easier...

"As we look ahead, American expects to see an increase in the number of recalls that they will be processing from their furloughed pilot ranks. As a result, American will continue to need Envoy pilots every month for the remainder of the year, but it is highly unlikely that it will continue at the previous rate of 30 per month. We have not yet received the final flow numbers for May, but American anticipates that for the next four months, classes will be made up only of recalls and wholly-owned regional pilots – no off-the-street new hires. Envoy will represent at a minimum 50% of these wholly-owned pilots."

Yeah, I'm sure you talk to the AA sim instructors over there all the time being at Mesa and having no access to them. Lol

We actually do talk with them all the time, since some of our sims and briefing rooms are still right next to theirs in the same AA flight academy building for years and we regularly chat in the hallways or break room and most of us have many friends there. I was just was sitting in the 787 sim recently getting to do a non motion demo when one of them in the hallway invited me too after my sim session ended and we were talking in the hall. Flow through is always talked about. Before we moved buildings recently, we shared the same classroom spaces with them at the AA flight Academy forever. Obviously we know many of these people very well. Our guys have been doing exceptionally well at AA, they have been in the industry for many years, and have spent 15 years+ in one of the most thorough 121 training programs out there plus already working for this company for so many years. It makes the transition much easier. We don't have as much new to learn as people hired off the street since we already use a lot of the same systems as AA as well.

There was a couple super senior 30yr Eagle idiots when the flow first started back up in 2010 that didn't bother to study when they went over and a couple of our troublemakers that ALPA kept getting their jobs back. They are history now though. The other 870+ have done great and the instructors claim they love having the majority of ex eagle guys. It makes their life easier. Their words.

Exactly.

People flowing have already worked for AA for a long time, well over a decade. This is where our paychecks came from. It's not like people are just showing up and getting a free handout to AA. They have been busting their a ss for this company for years. Now they have an arbitrated agreement due to letter 3 grievance resolutions so of course they expect to go. The next group has a negotiated agreement on their behalf that gave up certain things to get that flow contractually. So yeah, they expect to get their end of the contract when the time comes.

We are "entitled" to those slots if that is how you want to say it.
en·ti·tle
inˈtīdl,enˈtīdl/
1.give (someone) a legal right or a just claim to receive or do something.

.

I thought it was a running joke you guys think of yourself as mainline, but I'll be damned, you really do think it!

Right back at 'ya smokey. ;)

You jet guys are so damn bitter... Come fly a prop and chill! Hahaha