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Old 11-20-2017 | 06:24 PM
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Default Laughlin T-38 Crash...

One in the hospital; one didn't make it.

A toast, and a nickel on the grass.
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Old 11-21-2017 | 12:24 AM
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It's been a tough day down here today. Unforgiving business we're in. A nickle on the grass indeed...
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Old 11-21-2017 | 01:45 AM
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Fair winds and following seas.....
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Old 11-21-2017 | 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by hindsight2020
It's been a tough day down here today. Unforgiving business we're in. A nickle on the grass indeed...
So sorry. This is a tough business.
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Old 11-21-2017 | 04:31 AM
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If I remember correctly, the Thunderbirds put a formation into the ground during practice in the 1980s. Not a forgiving airplane.

Joe
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Old 11-21-2017 | 06:33 AM
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Yes, they did, more like an unforgiving operation. The -38 was marvelous to fly. A nickel on the grass.

GF
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Old 11-21-2017 | 08:57 AM
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Here's a toast...
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Old 11-21-2017 | 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by joepilot
If I remember correctly, the Thunderbirds put a formation into the ground during practice in the 1980s. Not a forgiving airplane.

Joe
As I recall that was caused by a mechanical failure in the lead's aircraft during a line abreast loop.
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Old 11-21-2017 | 05:11 PM
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Fair Winds...
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Old 11-22-2017 | 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Packrat
As I recall that was caused by a mechanical failure in the lead's aircraft during a line abreast loop.
Long story here, but there was no mechanical failure -- it was 100% pilot error.

But the then-TAC Commander did not want to blame the deaths of 4 of the USAF's best on pilot error, so he directed that the investigation board find another reason for the crash.

Ed Rasimus, who many will recognize as a former USAF fighter pilot and author of a couple of great books about flying F-105s and F-4s in Vietnam, posted this on rec.aviation.military almost 20 years ago:

Thunderbird crash (Ed Rasimus)

The accident report was very controversial. As the only TAC unit other than the 'Birds flying the T-38, the 479th TFW at Holloman was tasked to supply both the Flying Safety Officer member and Pilot member to the accident investigation board. Both pilots were out of my unit, the 435th TFTS.

The initial report of the board was a finding of pilot error. The lead aircraft had topped out on the loop at an altitude below the minimum required to insure a safe recovery. Failure to recognize the altitude and continuation of the maneuver to the pull through meant that after reaching about 60 degrees nose low inverted, the formation was in a position from which recovery was no longer possible.

There was evidence reported that the control stick and linkages were deformed probably due to pilot effort to pull through at whatever G was available. When the report was submitted, General Creech returned it and reconvened the board with the statement that "Thunderbirds do not commit pilot errors." Command guidance was to come up with another cause.

That was when the "shock absorber" was invented as the culprit. What made the report a laughingstock for T-38 pilots (although acceptable to Gen. Creech and the general public) was the fact that with 160 AT-38B aircraft on the ramp at Holloman, with at least 1000 maintainers and more than 200 Talon IPs on the base and with more than 20 years experience operating the airplane for the USAF, no one had ever before heard of the "shock absorber" and no one could find any reference to such a gadget in the control system schematics.
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