Afrotc vs. Ang
04-17-2018, 07:41 PM
#21
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by kbay hombre
I HIGHLY recommend you consider it, then. Especially if you are interested in helos, since the Army NG has more helos and employs more helo pilots than any other branch/service. To answer your questions, the Army NG regularly hires civilians off the street to fly. In fact, it's the only service that hires high school graduates to go to flight school without a degree. Absolutely no college is required, no matter what the recruiter tells you. The Army hires literally hundreds of people per year for pilot billets who have no college education. If you are enough of a rock star, you can go from high school graduation through boot camp (BCT), Warrant Officer Candidate School (WOCS) and flight school at Rucker and be a rated helo pilot by the time you're 20 years old. Even if you go Army NG, you'll spend 12ish months on active duty just getting through BCT, WOCS and flight school. By the time you're done you'll have enough active duty time to qualify for the Post 9/11 GI Bill, which you can then use as a reservist/guardsman to pay for college while flying on the weekends. That's in addition to Tuition Assistance (TA) and any tuition waivers your specific state offers for state universities.
In terms of hiring, yes, it's usually similar. I have a cousin who did it recently. You first get in touch with a local Army NG helo unit and speak to one of their pilot recruiters, who is usually another warrant officer or NCO. After that, you'll probably meet up with both the recruiter and a senior warrant officer (probably a CW4) who is a pilot at the unit you want to join. Assuming he likes you and signs off, you'll submit your resume and any FAA licenses you have like your PPL. Then you'll take the ASVAB and do the dance at MEPS, which is pretty much a universal requirement. You'll also take a test specific for Army pilots called the SIFT; each service has its own aviation-specific test you take and all make you go through MEPS.
Anyway, assuming you do well on the ASVAB/SIFT tests and are medically qualified via MEPS, your recruiter will also make you take the army physical fitness test (APFT) which is required for your WOCS/WOFT package. The Army is very strict about this for warrant officers. I don't know what the current scores are but my cousin needed at least a 200 (out of 300) to be competitive. Once you've done all of this, your recruiter submits your package. Assuming you get picked up, you have 3 phases. First is boot camp (BCT) which is 8-10 weeks. Second is Warrant OCS (WOCS) which is 6 weeks. Third is flight school, which is 10-11 months last I checked. So, a little over a year total, and you finish with about 200 hours of rotary time and then you go back to your unit and fly on drill weekends. In other words, it's significantly more abbreviated than the other services and you can become a rated, operational pilot a lot younger/faster in the Army. As far as I know, it is less competitive to get into an Army NG pilot slot than any other branch/service, as long as you pass all those tests (ASVAB, SIFT), are medically qualified and get a decent score on the APFT.
In terms of hiring, yes, it's usually similar. I have a cousin who did it recently. You first get in touch with a local Army NG helo unit and speak to one of their pilot recruiters, who is usually another warrant officer or NCO. After that, you'll probably meet up with both the recruiter and a senior warrant officer (probably a CW4) who is a pilot at the unit you want to join. Assuming he likes you and signs off, you'll submit your resume and any FAA licenses you have like your PPL. Then you'll take the ASVAB and do the dance at MEPS, which is pretty much a universal requirement. You'll also take a test specific for Army pilots called the SIFT; each service has its own aviation-specific test you take and all make you go through MEPS.
Anyway, assuming you do well on the ASVAB/SIFT tests and are medically qualified via MEPS, your recruiter will also make you take the army physical fitness test (APFT) which is required for your WOCS/WOFT package. The Army is very strict about this for warrant officers. I don't know what the current scores are but my cousin needed at least a 200 (out of 300) to be competitive. Once you've done all of this, your recruiter submits your package. Assuming you get picked up, you have 3 phases. First is boot camp (BCT) which is 8-10 weeks. Second is Warrant OCS (WOCS) which is 6 weeks. Third is flight school, which is 10-11 months last I checked. So, a little over a year total, and you finish with about 200 hours of rotary time and then you go back to your unit and fly on drill weekends. In other words, it's significantly more abbreviated than the other services and you can become a rated, operational pilot a lot younger/faster in the Army. As far as I know, it is less competitive to get into an Army NG pilot slot than any other branch/service, as long as you pass all those tests (ASVAB, SIFT), are medically qualified and get a decent score on the APFT.
04-17-2018, 09:18 PM
#22
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Position: A shack in Kailua
Posts: 36
Originally Posted by robspenc
Thanks for your help! It's definitely something to look into. I'll graduate high school just turning 17, so I will probably get some college done before I apply to units. Do you know if I am limited to local units or can I apply across the country like the ANG? Also, would you recommend the Army NG over the reserves?
04-18-2018, 05:49 AM
#23
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Legacy FO, T-38 IP
Posts: 56
ANG
Originally Posted by robspenc
I know it's hard to judge, but do you think that ANG units will be hiring that much in the next few years when I am ready to apply?
Also, I am planning on getting my private pilot's license soon. Is it necessary/beneficial to do any more ratings such as an instrument rating?
Also, I am planning on getting my private pilot's license soon. Is it necessary/beneficial to do any more ratings such as an instrument rating?
Also, many Guard/Reserve units are seeing their pilots leave for 2-day a month, non-flying jobs (most Guard/Reserve units require their pilots to work 4 to 6 days a month). With the airline jobs paying so well these days, many pilots are tired of working 4 to 6 days a month for Uncle Sam and very sick of deploying. In the past year, I know of 6 AF reserve pilots that are also airline pilots, who have left part-time flying jobs for non-flying 2-day a month jobs.
With the airline retirement boom just getting started, the Guard/Reserve will continue to lose most of their full-time personnel, and a lot of their part-time pilots.
So, I think your chances of finding an ANG job are great.
Yes, earning your PPL and Instrument Rating is a great idea.
Another guy posted about Army aviation. If I were in your shoes, I would go no where near the Army. ANG or AF Reserve fixed-wing aviation is way better for future civilian employment prospects. Way better.
Good luck!
04-18-2018, 11:24 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 747 Captain (Ret,)
Posts: 804
One caution about AFROTC/Active Duty: In the recent past many newly rated USAF pilots were assigned to drones rather than actual airplanes. I'm not sure if this is still going on. Neither the FAA nor the airlines count drone operator time as flight time.
A good reason to go Guard or Reserves, if still true.
Joe
A good reason to go Guard or Reserves, if still true.
Joe
04-18-2018, 11:30 AM
#25
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Position: A shack in Kailua
Posts: 36
Originally Posted by Merle Dixon
Another guy posted about Army aviation. If I were in your shoes, I would go no where near the Army. ANG or AF Reserve fixed-wing aviation is way better for future civilian employment prospects. Way better.
The fact is, he's expressed an interest in flying helos and going the reserve/part-time route. He's said this explicitly, so this is what I'm trying to help him with. It's also a fact that he can fly helos years earlier and fly them a lot more often as a warrant officer in an Army guard unit than he ever could as a reservist in any other service.
Do you understand the difference between most commissioned pilots and Army aviation CWO's? Army aviation CWO's aren't expected to be generalists who also do admin tours, get graduate degrees, etc like most of us commissioned O's after our first few tours. No staff/air/war college, no major squadron/wing/regiment responsibilities as they advance. No "up or out" after O-3 like us. Army aviation CWO's are specialists who spend their entire careers just flying. I get that you're trying to set him up for the airlines. If you read what I and many others said earlier, no one (including me) is recommending the Army guard for an airline career.
If his priority is to fly part-time and he likes helos, going Army guard as a warrant is the way to go. If he wants to go airlines and that's his priority over all else, a guaranteed UPT slot with an air guard heavy unit is obviously the way to go. No need to tell people to "go no where near" the Army.
Last edited by kbay hombre; 04-18-2018 at 11:47 AM.
04-18-2018, 01:08 PM
#26
Covfefe
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,001
As a former army pilot, I wouldn’t advise many people to go fly in the army. Lots of army guys try to go to the AF (AD/ANG/AFR), don’t know of anyone in the other services trying to go into the army.
Warrants do staff jobs too. No CW4 billets at the company level. All are in the battalion/brigade level. They are more flying related than commissioned staff jobs, though. They also hold ridiculous additional duties while WO1-CW2 (environmental compliance, key control, property book, urine test officer, etc.), and better additional duties as CW3s (safety, stan eval, tactics, maintenance). They do stay flying most of their career though, and their additional duties are far less time consuming than the jobs of commissioned guys. And I don’t know how life in ARNG units compares to AD...maybe it’s better.
I’ve said it in other threads...army aviation is the armpit of all military aviation. Smallest pay (fewest flying bonuses and the whole warrant structure), the least focused on flying, prioritizing stuff like organized unit PT every morning, a big focus on being like everyone else in the army, and then you get to fly a few times a month. We went to the field (sleeping in tents) when not deployed, deployed for training deployments that were worse than real combat deployments, and other fun stuff. And we deploy 9-15 months at a time...closer to 9 now. And we (even warrants) didn’t fly a whole lot when not deployed. Flying attack in the army is fun. Shooting stuff from that close in is fun. I’m sure the UH/CH guys liked what they did too. But there’s a reason so many guys in the army try to go ANG/AFRES. If it’s what you want to do, it can be a great job for an 18 year old, and there’s always time to make the switch to the ANG/AFRES later if you decide the grass is greener in the AF.
Best way to put it is the Army is a ground force that happens to have helicopters to help support the ground mission...they are just another tool, the same as artillery or tanks. It’s more army-ish. The Air Force is a flying force that has other assets to support the flying. They are focused accordingly.
Warrants do staff jobs too. No CW4 billets at the company level. All are in the battalion/brigade level. They are more flying related than commissioned staff jobs, though. They also hold ridiculous additional duties while WO1-CW2 (environmental compliance, key control, property book, urine test officer, etc.), and better additional duties as CW3s (safety, stan eval, tactics, maintenance). They do stay flying most of their career though, and their additional duties are far less time consuming than the jobs of commissioned guys. And I don’t know how life in ARNG units compares to AD...maybe it’s better.
I’ve said it in other threads...army aviation is the armpit of all military aviation. Smallest pay (fewest flying bonuses and the whole warrant structure), the least focused on flying, prioritizing stuff like organized unit PT every morning, a big focus on being like everyone else in the army, and then you get to fly a few times a month. We went to the field (sleeping in tents) when not deployed, deployed for training deployments that were worse than real combat deployments, and other fun stuff. And we deploy 9-15 months at a time...closer to 9 now. And we (even warrants) didn’t fly a whole lot when not deployed. Flying attack in the army is fun. Shooting stuff from that close in is fun. I’m sure the UH/CH guys liked what they did too. But there’s a reason so many guys in the army try to go ANG/AFRES. If it’s what you want to do, it can be a great job for an 18 year old, and there’s always time to make the switch to the ANG/AFRES later if you decide the grass is greener in the AF.
Best way to put it is the Army is a ground force that happens to have helicopters to help support the ground mission...they are just another tool, the same as artillery or tanks. It’s more army-ish. The Air Force is a flying force that has other assets to support the flying. They are focused accordingly.
04-18-2018, 02:10 PM
#27
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Position: Missionary
Posts: 2
Hi Robspenc,
I did the ANG after traditional college, and good call on going to college first! College was a great experience, and if you don't have to, don't miss out on that.
What is your overall goal? Do you really want to fly for the military, or is your eventual goal to be an airline pilot? If airlines are your goal, keep in mind that times have changed, and if you go the civilian route, you can be flying for an airline not long after college; the airlines are hurting for people.
If you are thinking you really want to fly military, I would recommend ANG over AFRC, and I wouldn't recommend active duty at all, unless you really like being in a crappy place for 200 days a year.
Since you are a junior in HS, you have a lot of time to think about this, which is good, because it is a huge decision. Keep in mind that we have been in multiple wars for over 16 years, and it will probably be going on for many years. Even in the ANG, you can expect multiple deployments (we go every year... and it really is like Groundhog Day.) We also participate in wars no one talks about, like in Yemen (it's no small moral matter to help the Saudis, when they have killed thousands of civilians in that country.) If you are okay with all of this, then the military can be a good move for you. Just have an idea what you are actually signing up for.
No matter what, focus primarily on school right now. Go to college, major in something that you can do well in. It matters far more to get good grades than WHAT you are studying. (i.e. Don't study Engineering and get Cs, when you could enjoy and score better grades in a Liberal Art.) I know flying is expensive, but try to get your Private at least. Working at an FBO could be good (I did that, too...) because it exposes you to aviation, and may even get you a discount on flight time. Basically, make yourself the best possible candidate you can, so when it comes time to apply to units (or airlines!) you can show that you are a hard worker, and have really wanted to do this. And stay out of trouble; a DUI can easily end a career before it starts, military or civilian.
As for your question about where to apply... you can apply wherever you want. Some units like to hire local people, since they assume they are already invested in the local area, and are more likely to stay for their whole career, but I have seen people hired from all over. I would not recommend enlisting first, unless you REALLY want to. (I have seen more than a few people enlist first, then get selected for a pilot slot, only to be disqualified on their flight physical. It is heartbreaking.)
The military worked for me, because the airline industry was in the toilet when I was applying (I already had my ratings...) but honestly, I would do things differently if I were starting out now.
Everyone is different... just have a realistic idea and expectation of what it means to fly for the military (or the airlines, for that matter.) Try to talk to as many people, both military and civilian, about their experiences. Take your time, enjoy college, be safe. Good luck, and feel free to PM me if you have any questions!
I did the ANG after traditional college, and good call on going to college first! College was a great experience, and if you don't have to, don't miss out on that.
What is your overall goal? Do you really want to fly for the military, or is your eventual goal to be an airline pilot? If airlines are your goal, keep in mind that times have changed, and if you go the civilian route, you can be flying for an airline not long after college; the airlines are hurting for people.
If you are thinking you really want to fly military, I would recommend ANG over AFRC, and I wouldn't recommend active duty at all, unless you really like being in a crappy place for 200 days a year.
Since you are a junior in HS, you have a lot of time to think about this, which is good, because it is a huge decision. Keep in mind that we have been in multiple wars for over 16 years, and it will probably be going on for many years. Even in the ANG, you can expect multiple deployments (we go every year... and it really is like Groundhog Day.) We also participate in wars no one talks about, like in Yemen (it's no small moral matter to help the Saudis, when they have killed thousands of civilians in that country.) If you are okay with all of this, then the military can be a good move for you. Just have an idea what you are actually signing up for.
No matter what, focus primarily on school right now. Go to college, major in something that you can do well in. It matters far more to get good grades than WHAT you are studying. (i.e. Don't study Engineering and get Cs, when you could enjoy and score better grades in a Liberal Art.) I know flying is expensive, but try to get your Private at least. Working at an FBO could be good (I did that, too...) because it exposes you to aviation, and may even get you a discount on flight time. Basically, make yourself the best possible candidate you can, so when it comes time to apply to units (or airlines!) you can show that you are a hard worker, and have really wanted to do this. And stay out of trouble; a DUI can easily end a career before it starts, military or civilian.
As for your question about where to apply... you can apply wherever you want. Some units like to hire local people, since they assume they are already invested in the local area, and are more likely to stay for their whole career, but I have seen people hired from all over. I would not recommend enlisting first, unless you REALLY want to. (I have seen more than a few people enlist first, then get selected for a pilot slot, only to be disqualified on their flight physical. It is heartbreaking.)
The military worked for me, because the airline industry was in the toilet when I was applying (I already had my ratings...) but honestly, I would do things differently if I were starting out now.
Everyone is different... just have a realistic idea and expectation of what it means to fly for the military (or the airlines, for that matter.) Try to talk to as many people, both military and civilian, about their experiences. Take your time, enjoy college, be safe. Good luck, and feel free to PM me if you have any questions!
04-18-2018, 02:50 PM
#28
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by smellslikejeta
Hi Robspenc,
I did the ANG after traditional college, and good call on going to college first! College was a great experience, and if you don't have to, don't miss out on that.
What is your overall goal? Do you really want to fly for the military, or is your eventual goal to be an airline pilot? If airlines are your goal, keep in mind that times have changed, and if you go the civilian route, you can be flying for an airline not long after college; the airlines are hurting for people.
If you are thinking you really want to fly military, I would recommend ANG over AFRC, and I wouldn't recommend active duty at all, unless you really like being in a crappy place for 200 days a year.
Since you are a junior in HS, you have a lot of time to think about this, which is good, because it is a huge decision. Keep in mind that we have been in multiple wars for over 16 years, and it will probably be going on for many years. Even in the ANG, you can expect multiple deployments (we go every year... and it really is like Groundhog Day.) We also participate in wars no one talks about, like in Yemen (it's no small moral matter to help the Saudis, when they have killed thousands of civilians in that country.) If you are okay with all of this, then the military can be a good move for you. Just have an idea what you are actually signing up for.
No matter what, focus primarily on school right now. Go to college, major in something that you can do well in. It matters far more to get good grades than WHAT you are studying. (i.e. Don't study Engineering and get Cs, when you could enjoy and score better grades in a Liberal Art.) I know flying is expensive, but try to get your Private at least. Working at an FBO could be good (I did that, too...) because it exposes you to aviation, and may even get you a discount on flight time. Basically, make yourself the best possible candidate you can, so when it comes time to apply to units (or airlines!) you can show that you are a hard worker, and have really wanted to do this. And stay out of trouble; a DUI can easily end a career before it starts, military or civilian.
As for your question about where to apply... you can apply wherever you want. Some units like to hire local people, since they assume they are already invested in the local area, and are more likely to stay for their whole career, but I have seen people hired from all over. I would not recommend enlisting first, unless you REALLY want to. (I have seen more than a few people enlist first, then get selected for a pilot slot, only to be disqualified on their flight physical. It is heartbreaking.)
The military worked for me, because the airline industry was in the toilet when I was applying (I already had my ratings...) but honestly, I would do things differently if I were starting out now.
Everyone is different... just have a realistic idea and expectation of what it means to fly for the military (or the airlines, for that matter.) Try to talk to as many people, both military and civilian, about their experiences. Take your time, enjoy college, be safe. Good luck, and feel free to PM me if you have any questions!
I did the ANG after traditional college, and good call on going to college first! College was a great experience, and if you don't have to, don't miss out on that.
What is your overall goal? Do you really want to fly for the military, or is your eventual goal to be an airline pilot? If airlines are your goal, keep in mind that times have changed, and if you go the civilian route, you can be flying for an airline not long after college; the airlines are hurting for people.
If you are thinking you really want to fly military, I would recommend ANG over AFRC, and I wouldn't recommend active duty at all, unless you really like being in a crappy place for 200 days a year.
Since you are a junior in HS, you have a lot of time to think about this, which is good, because it is a huge decision. Keep in mind that we have been in multiple wars for over 16 years, and it will probably be going on for many years. Even in the ANG, you can expect multiple deployments (we go every year... and it really is like Groundhog Day.) We also participate in wars no one talks about, like in Yemen (it's no small moral matter to help the Saudis, when they have killed thousands of civilians in that country.) If you are okay with all of this, then the military can be a good move for you. Just have an idea what you are actually signing up for.
No matter what, focus primarily on school right now. Go to college, major in something that you can do well in. It matters far more to get good grades than WHAT you are studying. (i.e. Don't study Engineering and get Cs, when you could enjoy and score better grades in a Liberal Art.) I know flying is expensive, but try to get your Private at least. Working at an FBO could be good (I did that, too...) because it exposes you to aviation, and may even get you a discount on flight time. Basically, make yourself the best possible candidate you can, so when it comes time to apply to units (or airlines!) you can show that you are a hard worker, and have really wanted to do this. And stay out of trouble; a DUI can easily end a career before it starts, military or civilian.
As for your question about where to apply... you can apply wherever you want. Some units like to hire local people, since they assume they are already invested in the local area, and are more likely to stay for their whole career, but I have seen people hired from all over. I would not recommend enlisting first, unless you REALLY want to. (I have seen more than a few people enlist first, then get selected for a pilot slot, only to be disqualified on their flight physical. It is heartbreaking.)
The military worked for me, because the airline industry was in the toilet when I was applying (I already had my ratings...) but honestly, I would do things differently if I were starting out now.
Everyone is different... just have a realistic idea and expectation of what it means to fly for the military (or the airlines, for that matter.) Try to talk to as many people, both military and civilian, about their experiences. Take your time, enjoy college, be safe. Good luck, and feel free to PM me if you have any questions!
04-19-2018, 02:55 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: Fastest Hunk of Junk in the Galaxy
Posts: 1,657
Originally Posted by robspenc
My eventual goal is to work for the airlines.
Originally Posted by robspenc
I know it's hard to judge, but do you think that ANG units will be hiring that much in the next few years when I am ready to apply?
04-19-2018, 08:23 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,213
Helos are not the path to the airlines. Period. The biggest airlines give you almost zero credit for help experience. Instead of off AD and getting a major airline job you’d most likely have to spend several more years at a regional airline before getting a major airline job. That will cost you a $1 milllion + over your career.
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