III Corps

This assumes that everyone in the company is as you describe, uninvolved and without concern about the finished product. I have been to Toulouse a few times, talked to some of the 'bus people and oddly enough, many of the guys in flight test are from outside France. And with the company marketing worldwide, do you think they do not care about producing a product that does not perform? Why do you think the ability to stay in business is based on locale and not on creating sufficient bang for the buck or euro?

[quote ]Would the F-111 crew we lost in 1986 have had a chance of avoiding a SAM if they were not so tired from having to hit an extra "made in the USA" tanker on the way to the target from having to take the long way to north Africa?[/QUOTE]

Absolute non sequitur and has no real basis in the argument except speculation and emotion. So.....let's try this one on since we are being irrelevant. Would the US exist had it not been for the French assistance and Lafayette? And would George Washington prefer an F-16 or a Rafale at Valley Forge?

reCALcitrant

Absolute non sequitur and has no real basis in the argument except speculation and emotion. So.....let's try this one on since we are being irrelevant. Would the US exist had it not been for the French assistance and Lafayette? And would George Washington prefer an F-16 or a Rafale at Valley Forge?[/QUOTE]


Agree with this statement. However, let's not sell it as if they did it for just little ole' America. How about Louisiana? They had a very big interest in kicking the **** out of England. We just happened to be a good excuse. We on the other hand have paid those cocksuckers back more than once. WW1, WW2, Vietnam, on and on. So **** the french and their piece of **** airplanes. And **** Charles Nunguyser also!!

GasPasser

As I expected, Congress is starting to flex it's muscle in this decision....the muscle that holds the purse-strings.


Congress Threatens To Pull Funding for Air Force Tankers

Congressional leaders threatened yesterday to withhold funding for one of the U.S. military's biggest aircraft programs because the $40 billion contract went to a group that includes a European manufacturer.

Since Friday, when the Air Force awarded the initial part of a contract to replace 179 Air Force refueling tankers to the team of Northrop Grumman and European Aeronautic Defence and Space, congressional leaders have questioned why that bid was chosen over one by Boeing, the largest U.S. aircraft manufacturer. Critics have said that the Air Force is outsourcing its purchasing in a way that could threaten national security and have accused the service of not taking the creation of American jobs into account.

At a two-hour hearing of the House panel that controls defense spending, committee chairman John P. Murtha (D-Pa.), said: "There is the industrial base you have to consider. The political implications are important. . . . This committee funds this program. All this committee has to do is stop the money, and this program is not going forward."

After the hearing Murtha said, "This is not a done deal."

Read the whole article here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...55.html?sub=AR

Spongebob

Ummm...Northrop Grumman won the contract. EADS is a supplier. The production facility in AL will say "Nortrop Grumman" on the side.

So, all the $ involved will be laundered by NGC first. NGC pays taxes in the US.

As far as the brain drain, it's already happened. Research how many engineers, technicians and laborers at Boeing in WA and KS are on green cards. It's a lot. Heck, many American companies can't hold onto ex pat technical talent becuase their QOL is better if they go home. Many American engineers work for Airbus. Time to grow up and acknowledge global work force. Heck, we've got China falling over themselves to hire American pilots.

Spongebob

III Corps

You're among friends.. don't hold back.. just say what you are feeling.

As for altruism, one has to wonder if it exists today but one thing for sure, among nations, politically there is no such thing as 'friends', only allies with common interests which can and often do change.

Did you mean Charles Eugene Jules Marie Nungesser , French ace? What did he do to p**s you off? Does your commander know you have some anger issues???

FWIW, I was on the playground when the French not only would not give us back the Spads we gave them in the 50s, they would not sell them back to us and then they cut them up. When I was at Bien Hoa, there was a Grumman Bearcat on a platform just outside the VNAF officers' club.. wonder what ever happened to it?

III Corps

You can take it to the bank that had some of the production taken place in "Combat Jack's" district, Combat Jack would have been happier than Senator Byrd in a white sheet.

Let's remember, Combat Jack has been such a goof-ball that he has been rebuked by his own party for attempting to bully another member of Congress, has been recognized for playing on the very edge in awarding contracts to those who contribute to his re-election campaign and was the huff n' puff clown calling the Marines at Haditha 'murderers'. To say the man has little credibility outside his own small realm is stating the very obvious.

Tanker-driver

Just to pour a little more gas on the flame -- Other foreign designs the US Military has procured: AV-8A and AV-8B Harriers, T-45A Goshawks, Canberra bombers and recce aircraft, Spitfires, Mosquitoes, and of course, all of our fighters in the First World War. And those are just what come to mind easily. The fact is, the USAF was forced by Congress into running a competition when it wanted to buy Boeings. It ran what was probably the most fair and open competition in it's history, and low and behold the underdog offered a better aircraft. Now many elected officials are crying foul. What else can the AF do? We need the aircraft, and we need them yesterday. The time to raise questions about the validity of a Northrop/EADS entry has long past. What we need to focus on now is getting the production line humming. Period.

TankerDriver

Exactly. Although I'd rather fly something that says "Boeing" on it, I'd much rather be flying the one that will the job better than the other and according to the numbers, that one is the Airbus.

GasPasser

I'm with you and the other TankerDriver. (BTW, are you two related, you have the same names?)

A new tanker to replace the KC-135 was needed years ago. We have let this go way to long. Now, they intend to take 30 years to replace the entire 135 fleet that was delivered in just 10 years. Why they can't repeat that feat is a matter of $ and priorities.

I'm an admitted Boeing bigot. I personally think the Boeing is a better pick even though it may be less capable in many measures than the Airbus. The reason I feel that the 767 is a better pick to replace the 135 is because pound for pound and foot for foot, the airforce will be getting so much more than the 135 gives us. Why not go bigger and more capable with the 330? Because it's greater size comes with a price. It won't fit in any of the 135 hangers, you can't put as many on the 135 ramps. Think about all the fuel pits that are spaced on the 135's footprint at the dozens of 135 bases out there. The cost to add ramp space or replace fuel pits, replace all the hangers is going to be huge. So what you ask? Well, what will be taken out of future AF budgets, what other new aircraft purchases will have to be postponed to pay for this "unforeseen" cost to field the new 330 tanker? The USAF can buy a bigger tanker when it is time to start replacing the KC-10, when they get to the KC-Y or KC-Z phases. We need a 135 replacement now, one we can field quickly, and without having to spend a lot of capital to replace hangers and ramps.

As much as I don't want to see the new tanker delayed, I think that the pressure will be brought to bear by the politicos and taxpayers to have this decision relooked at and possibly reversed. Here's another example of the political and taxpayer backlash that we'll continue to see in the months ahead.

Angry Boeing supporters target McCain
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080308/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_air_force_tankers

Personally, I don’t blame McCain for the mess of the 767 tanker the first time around. We can blame the USAF, Druyun, and Boeing for screwing up, and screwing us out of the 767 tanker.