Have you considered flying for the military?
 

I just answered another thread by recommending the military to someone with over 750 hours who was looking for some more multi time. I want to start out by saying the military isn't for everyone. In most branches, you are sworn in to be an officer first, and a pilot second. Many fail to realize that, and therefore, fail those who are depending on them outside of the cockpit. Lots of "taking one for the team". Enough of that...

When I went through Navy flight school, the guys who had their FAA tickets rocked the program and had their pick of aircraft they wanted to fly. Within a year, they were getting shot off the front of aircraft carriers, while their civilian buddies were selling blood plasma to try and get enough hours to make part 135 IFR mins. Good stuff, but not as exciting. Here's what I posted on the last thread...

Join the military.. with your hours, you'll probably get your choice of airframes right out of flight school. The best flying you will ever see.. the books written about it don't even do it justice. When I tell some of my civ friends what we do.. they just have this blank look on their face like they can't even comprehend what was just said.. Go for it.. you have nothing to lose and everything to gain,, Doesn't matter what you fly or in what branch.. all great stuff.

You're talking about 25 hours in a piston twin when you could be talking about cat shots off the front of a carrier loaded to bare with enough weapons to do some serious population control and landscaping.. or flying a helicopter into the mountains to pickup a downed pilot with your crewmen locked and loaded with miniguns and hellfires. The Navy C-2 COD pilots trap on the carrier all day then party like rock stars in hotels in Hong Kong, Bahrain, HI, and Australia..

Think past leveling off at FL 360 on autopilot and calling KC center to ask about ride reports so some idiot doesn't spill his coke. You can do that after you get your retirement check... Then you can tell this industry to kiss your A$$ and go live on the beach in a hammock.. How's that for a plan B ?


If I were looking at the industry in the condition it's in now and still had the dream.. I would fly for the military in a heartbeat... You will never regret it!

If anyone is considering it, you can pm me, but with all of the experience on this site.. just start a thread and ask the former mil guys to chime in.

Ive been seriously considering the AF here the last couple of weeks. The only thing stopping me is my girlfriend who I am serious with. Sounds like it is hard to beat though, would I rather build time making more money and flying better equipment, with the probability of govt retirement or build time flight instructing/ flying freight?

you are right. lots of guys join the military because they want to fly. what they don't realize is that there are several guys in the airforce that fly the fighter jets and after 10 years only have 2000-3000 tt. you are an officer first, pilot second. you are responsible for groups of guys, not just going out and flying the plane around. the military isn't what it used to be anymore either.... pro's and con's to both sides.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/sh...ad.php?t=27082

i know this is just one thing, but a buddy of mine that flew f14 tomcats, yes we have more than a couple of them here at pinnacle, says things just got so mundane after a while and that when he finally moved up in rank they sent him to fly a desk. he was proud to have his anchor, but it just wasn't the same for him. Another guy here that flies f-16's in the airforce. he flies the older models and by the end of next year they are retiring his units f-16's and he will be flying predators from a trailer. as you can imagine he isn't to thrilled about that either.

That's all true.. lot's of less than ideal jobs out there for a pilot in the military when you're on a non flying tour.

The skills you learn from some of the non flying duties are the same things that make successful managers and leaders in the business world. Military officers are highly sought after for that experience. I stayed in the cockpit my whole career, which is very rare. I paid for that by not promoting as high as I could have.. it's a trade off. Most (in the Navy), will do a non flying tour or two over a career. This could range from a desk/staff job, to being the guy that helps run the deck of the carrier. To be honest, after a couple years of flying, they are fun breaks while you work on your MBA with the mil paying for it.

If some guy gets bored flying F-14s, how do you think he'll feel after a couple of years at FLXXX on autopilot? I understand though.. After awhile, I got bored with lots of the flying.. but nothing like the boredom I feel now flying the jet routes. Some days I want to scream.. but it's still better than a desk job or selling insurance.
I haven't found anything yet that compares with the helicopter mountain SAR I did years ago.. Crazy stories.. Something you can only learn in the military..

i don't think he was bored with they flying but the entire military lifestyle. he said his first deployment was great, then came the next one and he was gone for 6 months, then the next was a little over a year. i think that is what he was reffering too. just getting worn out by the lifestyle. he has a pretty good gig here right now. been here about 8 years and gets pretty much what he wants schedule wise so i think that helps. he also said its kinda funny because the cruise speed in the tomcat is the same as the rj, a nice slow .74! i thought they would cruise faster but he said that was about the optimal speed for fuel use. he also told me funny stories about mid air refueling and the tomcat seemed really prone to compressor stalls and that it was always a fun time.

If you want to do it, don't let the GF hold you back unless she is the ONE...if so, marry her immediately. Let girlfriends influence your plans for the weekend, not your plans for life.

The USAF at least is making artificial jet fuel, so they won't be grounded if oil keeps going up.

Heavy guys fly almost as much as airline guys, depending on circumstances.

Fighter guys fly less, but it is mostly quality time, as opposed to AFCS in "newspaper mode". Majors recognize this and will readily 1000-1500 hour fighter guys.

Generally, a military officer will need to get promoted three times (to O-4/ major/lieutenant commander) in order to be allowed to stay in for 20 years to get the pension. The first two promotions are usually easy, but the O-4 promoton is more competetive. However it comes right about the time your training obligation expires (8-10 years), so it's a good time to leave if you want to, or don't get promoted.

Or an officer first, and a pilot not at all.

At least they're starting to consider Lasik. You don't want to lose PQ after signing up for 5-8 years.

yeah.. the military lifestyle does take it's toll. The deployments now come pretty frequent. If you're young and single it's a blast. It's difficult with family at home with nothing but an email to keep in touch for 6 months.

JS081285... Never let a girlfriend change the course of your life.. A wife is different.. You can't imagine the number of girls you'll meet at an air show with the military. Truly amazing...

Everyone read this line of advice five times.

Been there done that. We broke up anyway, didn't get the T-shirt.

Ok, so how does one go about getting into a program? Right now I"m 23 (24 in January), I fly for a regional and just finishing up my last few credits online to get my degree (dumb move, leaving college with 12 credits and 1 semester to go, to fly and have fun on the west coast, idiot idiot idiot!!!). Is there any hope for a reserve slot?

do you want to go full or reserve?

if you want to go full you have to do a couple of things. first call the recruiter and tell them you want to apply for a pilot slot. they will give you the spill about how its hard to come right in and be a pilot, but if you sign up you can get a pilot slot easier once you are in.. so if you fall for that then you are in trouble. if not they will tell you that you need to take the afoqt (airforce officer qualifying test). once you finish that they will set you up for a bat test (its pretty much a computer game, just google it and you will see.) once you have completed both of those you will get a pcsm score (pilot candidate selection method). so they combine your afoqt, bat score together, then add in bonus points for the hours you have now, up to 250, and then they give you your pcsm score. its on a scale from 0-99, 99 being the best. if you look good you will get sent to meps for a physical and if that looks good you get sent for a flight physical. if all that looks good then you just wait for the next board to meet. if you get chosen you are in, if not you automatically get moved to the next board. if you dont get chosen there then you have to reapply.

as far as reserves go it is pretty much the exact same way except for reserves you hav to apply for an open job in a reserve unit. they are very hard to get since a lot of the guys there have buddies waiting to join the unit.

you may ask how do i know all this? well i had a pcsm score of 96 and was ready to be shipped off and ready to go. but all the sudden ( about 8 years ago) they cancelled the class, and the one after that. i thought i was mobile, al bound but after going through the process for a couple years i got frustrated with it and decided to keep flight instructing and move on. i wonder sometimes where i would be if i would have hung in there, but i am pretty happy with my decision. while flight instructing i met my wife, got married, had a kid, and am happy with the way things turned out.. but one can always wonder right?

Reserve and Air Guard slots are a different animal.. Usually they pick guys already qualified and getting out of active duty.. ESPECIALLY during times when the airline industry is bad. The furloughed mil guys just go back to their old units to get a paycheck.. We can cover that in another thread.

To get into the mil as a pilot, you have to go to the OFFICER recruiting.. not the general recruiter at the strip mall. He recruits for the enlisted ranks. They have been know to lie about getting you into a flying job. You need to go to what is called a MEP center. That's the regional recruiting office where officers are recruited. the first step is to arrange to take the written exams. Study up on some of the test prep books in the local library. Usually a two part test.. general math, english blah, blah.. and a flying aptitude test.. once you pass this they will arrange for a flight physical, put together and application package, then send it to a selection board. If you are selected, they call you and tell you when to report to OCS.. The officer version of boot camp. Enlisted go to boot camp, officers go to OCS.. After you finish OCS, you report to flight school which can take from 18-30 months depending on what you fly. Your commitment to the military starts when you get your wings. After wings you report for training in whatever platform you will fly (fighters, transport, helo etc)

Make sure you are applying to an officer billet, going to Officer candidate school (OCS), with a promise of flight school.. You should be talking to an officer recruiter for all of this.. Most branches want you to have completed OCS by the time you are 27 yrs old.

You're in a good place, you're still young enough but it can take 1-3 years to get a slot, so start now if you're going to (age limit varies between 28-30).

Air National Guard / Air Force Reserve are probably your best bets because you can select the unit (and thus the airplane you will fly). You will also keep your seniority at your airline (it will accrue as though you never left).

You have a LOT of reserach to do...officers of any sort need plenty of initiative, so the process is not "spoon-fed". Check out relevant threads on the military forum here, and look at baseops.net

First thing you want to do is get an idea if you meet the medical requirements.

Then start looking into units you would like to join. Guard units generally prefer local boys, so if you have a local unit start there. If you don't live near a suitable unit, you may actually want to "move" near one while applying...get a crashpad in that city where you can get mail. This way you can at least appear to be a local.

I did some research for a friend recently...due to demographics the C-130 squadrons at Cheyenne and Charlie West are usually the easiest to get into.

Thanks for the advice. The gf is the one, Im just weighing the positives and negatives. I havent graduated yet so I'm not marrying her yet b/c I have been waiting on getting a job. Thats the big negative to me is the deployments, but I dont really know how they work in the af. As for the aircraft to fly, I would be just as happy flying heavies as opposed to fighters.

Anyone have an office that they recommend in socal? after hanging out here for a couple of days, I'm really hating the commute to ATL from SAN and seeing the fall schedule dwindle quite a bit is definitely not any means for feeling like I'm in a safe position for time to come.

Last I checked (USAF / Navy, anyway) you have to start UPT prior to your 27th birthday. No waivers or exceptions. Guard and Reserves, too. Just completing OCS won't cut it if there's any delay prior to your flight training.

With USMC aviation you could start a little older, but after comissioning you have to serve in a rifle company for a year or more before you'll start flight training. Every Marine is a rifleman first.

My info may be a little old, but bottom line- don't wait until you're 24 or 25 to start the ball rolling.

It used to be commissioned by your 27th B-day.... Delays in starting flight school are not your fault.. Starting when you're 25 or 26 is fine...

I don't remember this...is it something new?

Marine aviators have to complete OCC and TBS before flight school of course. Their real exposure to ground-pounding usually comes on a FAC tour following their first (or second) squadron tour.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joini...blpilotage.htm

I dunno if this is correct, but it's more recent than my "age 27" information:

Navy / USMC flight training start by age 26 (waivers up to 30?)

USAF... 29

Army... 32 (waivers up to 34)

Nobody mentioned the Coast Guard... helo, fixed, etc.

I went from strictly civilian to the reserves. Had about 200 hours when I got hired with a CMEI. It's a long process but extremely worth it. Units are hiring all the time, mine just hired 4 plus an alternate, plus a nav, out of 8 candidates. Pretty good odds there...

The above covers the USMC process except for that additonal 6-7 months spent at TBS (The Basic School) between OCS and Flight School. Basically TBS is where you train to be a infantry platoon leader and if you do not have a pilot slot then you compete for your MOS (job). TBS was also the time where someone without an aviation slot could compete for an NFO billet (10 slots out of 200 people in my class). Overall you can see that it is longer road to a squadron in the Marines than the other services - all due to the mantra of 'A Marine is always a rifleman first'.

USMCFLYR

The age thing is incorrect. You must be 30 by your start date for UPT although there are waivers. And yes, they do give them out.

The problem lies in the fact that if you go ANG you are not just hired by your unit and sent to UPT. You are given a FC1 medical. This medical is then sent through the unit followed by the State Guard Bureau and then finally the ANGB. This process generally takes a year.

This is followed by waiting for a AMS (Guard) class date. This is your commission. Unfortunately they do not like to load the classes up with pilots and the class start dates are usualy 4-6 months out unless your unit can pull strings or you are age critical. Generally around week 4 or 5 you will find out your class start date for UPT which is anywhere up to another 6 months away.

It is a long process. Units are very picky and preferential. Reserve units are a good way to go as well. You will have to really want it to get it. Just because you are successful in civilian flying does not always translate to AF SUPT. It is the hardest program you will ever take a part in. That being said good luck if you choose to do so but also know that you are not going to just be able to walk in and pick a unit. Many units will have 50-60 apps for one or two slots.

Deep thoughts eh?

Then I would give you the same advice as I always pass to young people that I am talking too - DO NOT JOIN THE MILITARY.

At least for the near future (no matter who is in the White House), deployments are in your future should you join the AD military. I don't know exactly how the Guard/Reserves deploy for the most part; but current times are different and the Guard/Reserves have been deploying more than ever before.

I'll only speak for myself, but even when we were not in a time of war I spent my first 4 years in the fleet deploying nearly 12 months out of 18 months (a 6 month deployment, followed by 1 year "at home" time of which you were gone between 4-6 months on work-ups).

USMCFLYR

Concur with USMCFLYR. I worked the same service active duty and now I fly the reserves. During my active service, I was gone frequently-more than just the Middle East combat deployments. Expect each year on average 5 months gone. Some years more. Some years less. If you can accept that, flying in the Marines is money! I fly Herc tankers. I wouldn't trade it for anything. As an airline guy now, I find that my "country club" is my reserve unit. My company is fun, but my reserve unit is home to most of my friends. Its a brotherhood.

Incidentally, my wife was a big-"I don't date jarheads" girl. She eventually did and she suffered through a year of Iraq deployments with me. Point--they can hack it if you can hack it. Better be comfortable with the possibility of helicopters or ospreys if you come to gun club. Though, it truly is about who you fly with and not what you fly--at least in the Marines.

How do AF deployments compare to other branches of the military?

**deleted**

There are plenty of AF people on this forum with a plethra of experience to question your questions about deployments with the AF - but I do have one story to relate that is kind of funny. I was deployed on a standard WestPac (Western Pacific) deployment and we were working with the F-15 Eagles out of Kadena and they were going to make a first deployment outside of Japan (Okinawa). I think it was '95 for anyone who might have been around during that time. We were joking because they were making a big deal out the 90 day deployment to the Middle East and we had already been there for some time and were still going to be there for some time after they came home. I think that in general (including peacetime) the 6-7 deployments of the USN/USMC are longer than the 3 month deployments of the AF; but times are changing. Standby to standby!

USMCFLYR

This is just an idiotic statement.
But don't worry - I'll take care of the ones that want to kill YOUR children.

USMCFLYR

The Kadena boys never deployed as much as anyone else because they already are in a hot spot. Why pull them off the line?

Of course, none of the Eagles are deploying now days.

I like his profile.. Airplanes flown: allot of them.... lets see.. there's the Cessna 152, 172, 182,.. the Piper Warrior and the Cherokee. wait.. are they the same???

Dude, if you have to ask you probably need to stay civilian...

There are good deals and bad deals. Bottom line, they tell you to go and you go. You want the training, the flight suit, and the cool ride? There's no free lunch.

If you're talking flying deployments, most AF are 120 days vs 7-15 months for MC and Army. Of course you can always get tagged for a non-flying year or my personal favorite a year teaching Iraqi pilot training. If you really don't want to deploy, then stay out of the military.

That said, while it hugely varies based on what you fly, when you're at home you're training to go to war. If you never deploy you just spent your entire military career training for something you never got to do. Who wants to do that? (hopefully the guys with nukes, but you get my point).

Deploying can be one of the best and most rewarding parts of being in the military. You get to see and do things that most people never get to experience. I am currently deplyed (but not to the sandbox) and I am actually not looking forward to going back to home station except that I get to be with my wife. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q_WDX2Ilhc

This requires a 'Dr Phil" intervention even though I don't really know what the heck he does except in 22 sec commercials...

If she is stopping you now, she will stop you later because she has limits on her love for you. You are talking a legitimate career choice. If you wanted to be a porn star or a politician, she has a fair cop. Since it isn't, it is going to clash when anything gets difficult and you will resent her like the devil. Do what you want to do, save a possible divorce, grief for both, because you do love her , she'll leave and you'll find another wonderful girl. I did.
Have USMC/USAF and a whole lotta Squid time. Good folks wherever you go. (Dumb@$$'s too, but that is for comedic relief ;))
Best of luck.

Are you implying that this is a bad thing? A 2,000-hour fighter guy after 10 years is in pretty good shape. What's the problem?

Oh I get the forward deployed thing.....it is just from my experience listening to my friends from AFROTC who are still in the AD and a friend who was last doing the MH-60 PaveLow thing with the AF Reserves - their deployments were always 90 days (for example the OSW dets to Al Jaber); so I was making somewhat of a comparison to the different services deployment schedules.

USMCFLYR

Especially now-a-days I'd say. There was another thread on the forum about AF waste and a few of the posts told stories of 'heavies' flying some missions and they said that they had flown 27 hours during that mission. I thought to myself - WOW! - a month's worth of good flying. It used to be that 25hrs/month was pretty average. It now seems that if you are not currently deployed the average is somewhere around 15-20 hrs.

USMCFLYR

no. if you read my post in its entirity you would have seen that i was talking about the guys who get in so they can fly a lot only to learn that for every 1.5 hours of flying there is 5 hours of brief and lots of desk work. i know when i first started looking in i thought i would be flying everyday doing practice missions, etc etc. i quickly learned that flying the plane is the least of your duties. so i will repeat again if you are getting in the af just to fly, you wont be doing as much of it as you think,, except for the heavy guys.

That's no different then some of lucky SOB's with the 200 hr/year Part 91 gigs. Plus...they get to go Mach 2 rather then M0.07!