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Old 08-06-2008 | 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GunshipGuy
So no tasking of DA missions for A-10s, F-15Es, AC-130s, etc with women on board...got it. OR, could it be that the pave low mafia (and their high ranking brass) won't accept reality.
In an aircraft there is no DIRECT contact with enemy forces ...unless you land, get out, and stab them or shoot them with your 9mm. The CV-22 in AFSOC is Spec Ops....the Pave mafia might be keeping women out...but there are other forces at work..You don't see women on ODA or SEAL teams do you? The Paves and CV22s carry those guys in....engage gomers on the LZ, pull pitch and leave.
They are a bit more DA than I was on the AC130 or anyone is in a fast mover.
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Old 08-06-2008 | 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
The only reason a fighter cockpit is not considered "DA" is because of the recent success we've had in avoiding significant combat losses. I guarantee that Bud Day, Robbie Risner and the hundreds of POWs as well as KIA Vietnam fighter pilots would argue that their cockpits were very "DA".
Their cockpits were not. Did they engage the NV pilots hand to hand or with their primary sidearm? Women are not allowed in combat units where the unit has direct contact with the enemy.

"All deployed soldiers, men and women, are serving “in harm’s way.” But even without a “front line,” the missions of direct ground combat units have not changed. Infantry, armor, and Special Operations Forces attack the enemy with deliberate offensive action under fire. These fighting battalions, and support units that “collocate” with them 100% of the time, are required by Defense Department regulations to be all male.

If the Army wants to change the “collocation rule,” the Secretary of Defense must approve and formally report the change to Congress approximately three months (30 legislative days) in advance. The law also requires an analysis of proposed changes on young women’s exemption from Selective Service obligations. "
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Old 08-06-2008 | 07:47 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by dtfl
In an aircraft there is no DIRECT contact with enemy forces ...unless you land, get out, and stab them or shoot them with your 9mm. The CV-22 in AFSOC is Spec Ops....the Pave mafia might be keeping women out...but there are other forces at work..You don't see women on ODA or SEAL teams do you? The Paves and CV22s carry those guys in....engage gomers on the LZ, pull pitch and leave.
They are a bit more DA than I was on the AC130 or anyone is in a fast mover.
Major thread jack, but I beg to differ. I'm not a patch wearer who forgets to check all her ACMs to see if they have warheads in them or not, but I don't see any mention of a requirement for ground contact in JP 1-02 or JP 3-05 when it comes to defining DA. No disrespect to the outstanding and very impressive pave low guys we have serving, but are 53 crews now routinely getting out of their helos to hunt down the enemy? From JP 3-05:
direct action. Short-duration strikes and other small-scale offensive actions conducted as a special operation in hostile, denied, or politically sensitive environments and which employ specialized military capabilities to seize, destroy, capture, exploit, recover, or damage designated targets. Direct action differs from conventional offensive actions in the level of physical and political risk, operational techniques, and the degree of discriminate and precise use of force to achieve specific objectives.
I've seen gunships, A-10s, preds, etc, work with ground SOF on DA missions. I don't know what else you would want to call it. My point is that this is the kind of flak the pave mafia puts up to keep their boys from having to integrate (read: SF, SEALs, Rangers, etc are a different story). Eventually that line of BS that they're like SOF/conventional ground teams will no longer fly and they can catch up with the rest of the AF and learn to keep their coin purse shaving fetish in check when the women are around.
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Old 08-07-2008 | 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by GunshipGuy
Major thread jack, but I beg to differ. I'm not a patch wearer who forgets to check all her ACMs to see if they have warheads in them or not, but I don't see any mention of a requirement for ground contact in JP 1-02 or JP 3-05 when it comes to defining DA. No disrespect to the outstanding and very impressive pave low guys we have serving, but are 53 crews now routinely getting out of their helos to hunt down the enemy? From JP 3-05:
direct action. Short-duration strikes and other small-scale offensive actions conducted as a special operation in hostile, denied, or politically sensitive environments and which employ specialized military capabilities to seize, destroy, capture, exploit, recover, or damage designated targets. Direct action differs from conventional offensive actions in the level of physical and political risk, operational techniques, and the degree of discriminate and precise use of force to achieve specific objectives.
I've seen gunships, A-10s, preds, etc, work with ground SOF on DA missions. I don't know what else you would want to call it. My point is that this is the kind of flak the pave mafia puts up to keep their boys from having to integrate (read: SF, SEALs, Rangers, etc are a different story). Eventually that line of BS that they're like SOF/conventional ground teams will no longer fly and they can catch up with the rest of the AF and learn to keep their coin purse shaving fetish in check when the women are around.
But dude..they aren't in direct contact with the enemy. That is what draws the line of women in combat. The Paves at least land, drop off the SF, and the gunner miay actually pull the trigger on a minigun on an insurgent who gets within 10m from the side of the Pave. We can talk over a beer, but due to the customer and the customer's mission..those assets - -22 and MH53 don't let women in. And to be honest I'm all for it. When I meant DA..I didnt mean DA in the sense of the JSOAC tasking it...well, sorta did....kicking doors down and shooting folks in close quarters IS what DA is...but AFSOC kinda stretched it. And women can't kick doors in and put rounds into folks in the DOD.
Anything else that flies different folks or flies higher...go for it.

and BTW....I was there in the HOA when they started the shaving crap....there were MANY women around. One was the first shaved...then the others were offended when the dudes......errr...ugh.
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Old 10-09-2008 | 09:03 PM
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It'll be interesting to see how the mission evolves with women now that the PC-12/U-28/NSA programs with AFSOC are online and recruiting regularly. They risk direct contact, bring shooters and operators in and out of the fight, and are in the thick of it. I know women there now.
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