I'm curious why do you say that? What changes down the road to cause Lt's like me to change the way they think? I'm not disagreeing with you and I realize I'm still wet behind the ears and ultimately really probably have no idea what I'm talking about so I always like to get insight from those that have been there done that.

Absolutely. We just never see them come down in the drops. How does it work with C-21's as far as ops to ops tours though? Are C-21's considered to be like a white jet tour so that you can get back to back ops to ops assignments or would the typical career track be C-21's - MWS - AETC?

As a C17 guy I can really only talk to my world. Being a FAIP hurts you not at all, zero effect on your progression. You'll show up as a second assignment guy, just like someone who grew up at a C17 base, be about a year behind the average guy in progression. And will catch up fast. Apparently ACIQ is coming back, if so the progression will be even sooner. By the end of that first tour you'll be indisguishable from a home grown C17 guy.

I know a few FAIPs who had trouble. To anyone who knew them it was pretty obvious their problems came from being morons, nothing specific about FAIPhood.

Been a while since I talked to my 135 buds but as of a few years ago what you said was corrrect. At 100 hours in the 135 you were an AC.

As to the fighter world, fewer connections but I am in a composite wing. There's only one fighter guy here I was a FAIP with, to say he's doing well would be an understatement. But I'll ask around next week and get their viewpoints.

As to the quality of FAIPs in UPT world, Duece we'll just have to disagree. I was a FAIP so obviously I have a different viewpoint...here goes. The absolute worst IPs came from MWS, hands down. It was clear that some bases would get a white jet assignment, no one wanted it, so they'd flush their worst performing not going to upgrade hands of brick brains of mush to UPT. Usually with a wavier for not being an AC. Majority of IPs were fine, regardless of where they came from. If you wanted a nit-noid, anal rententive moron completely lacking in perspective, often that was a FAIP, true. As I always told my students though, if you want to know what an MWS is like, if you want to hear about the AF, combat etc, go talk to an MWS guy. If you want to pass your checkride...go talk to the person who eats breathes and sleeps AETC because that's all he knows. I found regardless of my giving that advice or not, that's usually where they ended up. As I said, we can just disagree on that one.

There's a lot of fun to being a copilot, and you will miss that. You have to decide if it's okay or not. I enjoyed flying white jets. Was ready to move on and it's a small world, but I really did like it.

Good luck on your decision

[quote=Deuce130;452708]I think the guys who told you that are dead wrong. The guy who goes to a MWS right out of UPT almost always has it over the guy who was a FAIP. There are exceptions, however. I also think you've already talked yourself into it. Good luck, hopefully it turns out for the best.[/quote]

Say what?!? Must be an airframe dependent thing. In my community FAIPs show up to ACIQ day one, straight to the left seat. IP quals on the books also provide them differential minimums so as to essentially upgrade to IP with less MWS time than the home-grown type, essentially washing out the time difference. We can debate the virtues of "paying your dues" on the right seat all day (I could make a whole new thread about that), but from a career perspective, at least in my community the Faip incoming isn't missing out on anything. Perhaps that's the exception you were referring to. And from the perspective of the OP guy wanting to transition to the Guard and intent on doing the airline gig (again to each their own...) he's getting about 3 more years of primo TPIC time. In this scenario, I would totally go FAIP and come out with more TPIC while maximizing the likelyhood of punching out without incurring additional ADSC and/or palace chasing, while retaining currency (as important as TPIC), not to mention maximizing the cumulative amount of time per 10 years one gets to sexually harrass the wife (if you're into her more than 'training deployments'). YMMV as always.

Fly,

In regards to the comments about the difference between now and the ten year point:

1. You may have 2.5 kids, a mortgage, two car payments and a stay at home Mom.
2. The airline industry could be just like it is now, a mess.
3. Some carriers will be strong and possibly hiring, however there is no guarantee that you will get picked up by one.
4. Your home town unit is now flying tankers (KC135's I think). The BRAC hasn't been nice to the Guard / Reserve units and they may be gone or not doing a flying job (UAV's maybe) ten years from now.
5. You might actually enjoy the military and the security it offers (better on the inside than out).

If you are wise you will cover your bets (do SOS and ACSC) to make sure you are promotable should you decide to stay in. Even if you have a Guard / Reserve unit lined up they are going to want you to do those things to be promoted.

As for being a volunteer FAIP or not that's up to the AF and you (in that order). Both have their pluses and minuses. I do concur with the post about who gets you through your check ride and who gives real world experience (nope, I wasn't a FAIP).

The airlines put a lot of bias on letters of recommendation. There was a guy in my interview group at FedEx who got blackballed by someone in his past. Learning point: Don't be a dick.

Regardless of which course you take do your best at it. That work ethic and attitude will carry much further than "playing the game" or getting "face time" in the hallway.

Fly safe,
Biff

I was a FAIP (duh) then went to the CAF, now a reservist flying for a certain Frac company. Being a FAIP was great for me. I never went to the right seat in my MWS which saved me from having to suck up a non-vol tour as an ALO, UAV ect. Looking back being a faip in the tweet was the best job I ever had in flying. I say looking back because as a FAIP it sucks. Same thing every day, same wonderful location for 4.5 years (KEND) and lots of cool stories from my friends out in the MWS world I could think of while stepping for the third time on a C2302 at 101 degrees in OK. One big thing to keep in mind. Don't play for the future. The AF will change its mind 69 times about what it is going to do by the time you get to the end of your FAIP tour. Don't suck up being a FAIP just cause you think you will be in a better place 3 years down the road. You don't get guranteed assignments and the AF can even make your FAIP tour as long as they want. I personally know guys who were faips for 5 years. If you like the mission, and instructing is one of the hardest and best jobs there is, go for it. If you just want the FAIP as a place filler until you are more experienced or your wife is done with school, it will be the longest 3 years of your life.

Remember, FAIPing is a combat assignment. You engage in hand to hand combat every day with an unformed mass of pilot sitting a few feet away. The lessons you learn as a FAIP will help you throughout your career, but like any learning experience in the AF, it can be painful and the returns may be years away. If it were me, I would do it again in a heartbeat, even in the tweet. But that T-6 looks phat, so I would be perplexed. Sorry for the spelling.

You will just be in a different place in life when you're 35 versus when you're 25. You will value different things. What seems like a good idea now will look very different after 10 years of service.

I was just like you...I said "I don't care about going to school...", I said "I'll be happy if I can just fly...", I said "I don't care if I make Major/Lt Col", I said "I'm never gonna be one of those square-punchers who does stuff just to make rank."

Well, guess what. I turned out to be one. I am doing my Masters. I am working in a Wing Staff job. I'm actually considering *volunteering* for a remote so I can set myself up for better assignments at the end of my active duty road. I'm doing a lot of the stuff I swore I would never do when I was a Lieutenant.

Haven't read everyone else's, but I say go for it! I was a FAIP in the tone for 2.5 yrs and I loved it. You still fly your a$$ off and it's all PIC/Instrctr time. Your learning curve will never be steeper. Your airmanship will improve by leaps and bounds. PM me if you have any questions, I was in your shoes about 10 yrs ago.

For all attempting to be a career graybeard in the USAF, staying in a cockpit while the careerists punch tickets- you are fighting the machine. Once you've got a few years on station you're fighting to stay under the noise and keep the DPAR robot at bay from pushing you to the top of the heap of the next bad assignment destined for your unit. Enjoy. I found it to get mighty old mighty quick. Musical chairs are for kids to play, most before they learn about the sandbox- pun intended I guess.... Hey, when does OTBH become an accompanied overseas?

From an earlier post-The C-21 is an OSA tour and as such you would go to a MWS after it, similar to being a FAIP( with an XX followon).

That being said, I would put what MWS' you really want down on your dream sheet followed by FAIP, the reason I say it is because the only time in 13 years in the AF I had any say in what I flew was in UPT. I got my Herk to AK and guys who waited, saw EDF get rid of hercs. So, just an example of asking the man for your dream plane and keeping the FAIP as a fall back, because let's say you want a C-17 after a FAIP tour, but the JCA is online in three years and you are stuck in, let's say, Cannon doing that, with a wife who is understandably ****ed she is in Cannon.

As to the "avoid the right seat argument", that was some of favorite experiences, being a Herc Copilot getting to learn with the bar set low. My friends that were PXAs, (crossflows from tankers, FAIPs or C9/21s) had a steep learning curve and had little experience in the MWS to draw upon as they were tasked to be the PIC. Now it is not a difficult mountain to overcome, but if you're like me, you're lazy and like to get to know one airframe and then put the brain on cruisecontrol.

Some of mine as well. I went to Kadena straight out of UPT and had a MF'in blast until I went to AC school. Not the highlight of my flying career, but certainly an outstanding way to start. I wouldn't trade that time or those hours for any amount of PIC time or any seniority number in the world.

Being a FAIP is not an anchor if you are a good pilot in any MWS. In the F-15E community most FAIPs do very well. For example, I was a fully qualified IP in the F-15E after 2 1/4 years on my first Ops assignment. I know of some FAIPs that left their first assignment as 2 Ship Flight Leads... so I guess its merit based. I upgraded to 2 ship, 4 ship and IP based on my skills... due to the stick/rudder skills I learned during my time as a FAIP. I also was a solid briefer and instructor because of my time as a FAIP. Being a FAIP will not negatively impact your career... being a crappy pilot will.

ditto, I have rarely seen a FAIP (especially tweet guys) with crappy hands. T-1 guys seem to do real well also.

Volunteer to be a FAIP if, and ONLY if, you WANT to teach.

(let me say that again...)

Volunteer to be a FAIP if, AND ONLY IF, YOU WANT TO TEACH.

If you don't want to teach, you will likely not do your best--thus your follow on assignment won't pan out like you hope.

Besides, trying to predict what the "hot" carreer path will be 3-4 years down the road is a waste of time.

Fly6584,

I was never a FAIP, but listen to me very carefully!! Joined the AF in 85, going to fly an F-15!!! Got a C-141 instead (Washed out 65% of my UPT class so I was happy to get wings!) If I knew I would end up in a C-141 I would have stayed in Law school, but within 18 months of arriving at my base, I was flying a combat mission invading Panama, flew into the Soviet Union, when they were still the Bad guys! and had women from all corners of the globe!!! It was a Blast...still is (C-17)
Fast Forward to 1994
Got hired at one of my LAST CHOICE Airlines (the C-141 was a last choice as well) The airline that hired me was UPS!!!!!! It is a BLAST!!! making the big bucks, driving a Vette! Hot Wife, cool kids, life is good!!!
The MORAL of the STORY????
Throw out that dumb excel spread sheet thingy, stop trying to predict the future, cause you can't and do what you want...and even when things don't go your way roll with the punches....
Good Luck in Tone's
Vito

You picked perhaps the least important thing out of my sentence. Sure landings and approaches of the past are history. The reality is, being a UPT instructor is highly desired. Airlines (in the past) used to count the time more (a factor was used).

You get to log IP PIC time straight out of UPT while everyone else is doing the SIC gig while trying to avoid the dreaded "other" time. After FAIP life, when you finally get to your MWS, you don't spend two or three years playing gear Biotch. Thus, after your commitment, you have around 1500 more hours of PIC and IP time than the average USAF bubba.

Does that make it clear?

Every FAIP I've known (in my peer group) were hired and flying in the airlines before the rest of us.

-Fatty

FWIW, that is a VERY atypical UPT washout rate for a particular class. What class, what base?

Again, caveat that statement with that it doesn't apply to guys going to fighters, who will be logging PIC turbine their entire career after their initial Form 8.

Any "problems" with FAIPs in the fighter pipeline occurs only during the initial operational assignment -- where your year-group peers will have lots of MWS hours and be flight leads/instructors, while you will still be a wingman. It's an ego hit more than anything. If you can tolerate being "behind" your year group peers, then this is a non-issue.

After your 2nd and 3rd flying tours -- approaching your Major's board -- fighter FAIPs will be basically on equal footing with their fighter non-FAIP peers. The straight-to-MWS guys will have mostly all gone to an ALFA tour and gotten their AETC IP hours while you're on your second ops tour catching up as an IP/SEFE.

When it comes time to go to the airline interview after the 10-year hitch is up, all fighter dudes will all generally be equal -- somewhere right around (probably above, but it depends on your MWS) those 1,000 and 1,500 hour turbine PIC mins to apply.

I wasn't in his class, but mine had a 47% washout/wash-back rate. Started with 34, graduated 18 of the original 34 on time, plus we had 8 guys who washed back to our class and graduated with us. I lost track of the guys who washed back from our class to other classes, so many of them probably graduated as well.

1988, Willie ... a moment of silence for the great Williams AFB. :)

Hacker15E

Columbus 87-04 started with about 63 studs ended up with 29. 4 of which were wash-backs so only 25 of the original class graduated. I believe 87-05 had a higher rate! Did Some Research and found out that 87-03,4,5 had the highest wash-out rates since WWII. The standard rate was 50%. Our commander told us on the first day, "look to your left and right, one of you are guarenteed to be gone!" Another IP once told me,
"I'm not here to teach you to fly "I'm here to wash your sorry ass out"
It wasn't as mean as it sounds...It was in the middle of the big Reagan military build-up and classes were very large..the airlines weren't hiring yet so they had they're pick.....
later,
Vito

A few of my buds became FAIP's and were at CBM from 88-90 and they said it was very difficult to wash a stud out during that timeframe. I was in 141's and every pilot I knew was hired by 3 airlines before he seperated, and that was when the Air Force started offering incentives like the pilot bonus and the leather jackets. As you well know its all about the timing!!
Vito

I was a student at CBM during '88 and we lost 50% of my class. I FAIP'ed there from 89-93 and towards 91-92 time frame it became the kindler, gentler UPT.

VITO's right..it is all about the timing!

I had heard this same thing - that IP time was highly desired. I hope you are right.

Of course you are speaking of the "heavy" world here. FAIPing instead of being single seat just gives you that IP time but you're still building that PIC time.

Do you mean to convey in this sentence that no FAIPs actually stay in the AF or that they typically get out at their first opportunity?

USMCFLYR

Thanks again for all the replies. This info is priceless.

I'm about 99% sure I would like to FAIP and I think I'm going to go ahead and tell my IP's my desire to FAIP. I've heard it's almost like an interview process after you let them know you want to FAIP in that a lot of IP's will come talk to you about it and try and get to know you to see if they would like to have you apart of their squadron.

Ultimately I'm still unsure whether I would like to go T-6's or T-1's, but I'm leaning more towards T-6's because I think I would enjoy teaching phase II more. To answer someone's question earlier I DEFINITELY do want to teach and feel like I could make a really good IP. If I were just doing this for the airlines I would definitely pick T-1's for the multi time, but I honestly feel like I would enjoy teaching Phase II more and besides I'll have plenty of time in my MWS to get that multi time. We'll see though. I've got some time before I need to decide. Thanks again!

T-6... hands down.

I enjoyed flying the T-1 as a student, but even then I'd look over at the IP and think the job looked boring as sh!t.

My feelings haven't changed really. I loved flying the Tweet and will quite likely go take a turn in the 6, which looks like even more fun. Teaching primary is where it's at (for me). When the class starts they can't even find the jet on the ramp, in roughly 4 months they're solo on your wing. Dollar rides were fun, initial solo was fun, some other stuff enjoyable, but nothing quite gives you that feedback on your instructor skills like letting a dude fly just off your wing with no one in his jet to save your life.

I have a question that no one has addressed yet. I see alot of people talking about instructing in T-6s or T-1s, but very little about instructing in the RTUs. Are those tours desired in the AF? Generally speaking, the jet guys in the USN/USMC did not want to go to the primary training squadrons in the past and fly the T-34 or T-6s in the future. A lot of helo guys who wanted fixed wing time prior to getting out, or multi-engine guys who didn't instruct in the multi-engine training squadrons, taught in the primary squadrons. One of my best friends in taking command of a Primary Training squadron in a few months and I know that he is recruiting jet guys into his squadron - partly in an attempt to set up his squadron to become the first T-6 flight training squadron. Btw - jet guys did like to get into the NFO training squadron. It was jet time, all front seat time, they flew low levels and some basic BFM and were based in Pensacola, FL!

In another thread there was discussion about life experiences, flying experiences, etc.... when a civilian goes to ATP and goes from no flying to CFII/MEI in 90 days and then is instructing. The point was that this person has never flown outside of the training environment from their home base, have possibly never flown in really bad weather or shot other instrument approaches than the local ones to home field, etc...... This person doesn't bring any of the "real life" experience to the table with them to pass on to the students.

When I finished my ratings in college and could have stayed around for another semester to get my CFII/MEI I didn't want to because I didn't feel that I had enough experience to teach - although I know that instructing is the basic way to build time and experience in the civilian side of aviation. Once I got into the military and learned of the SERGRAD/FAIP program I understood that it seemed to work well - but that same thought process stayed with me - I'd rather have that instructor who has been out in the "fleet" and has some real world experiences to bring to the brief/flight.

Having brought this up to quite a few SERGRADs in the past I understand that they are put through a good IUT syllabus and start off instructing in the basic stages initially and having just gone through the process themselves they have a good idea of what to instruct. Hummmmmmm.......
I still question it; I mean that SERGRAD teaching TacForm has all of a few flights himself even doing TacForm before he is teaching it. The experience question raises its head again in my mind.

Plus - I didn't initially join the military to instruct - I joined the military to get out into the operational fleet - to get into the fight now days. Looking at the responses in this thread it would seem that I am in the minority.

In the end - I know that the programs work. I've seen lots of SERGRADs/FAIPs go on to successful careers and I know that my former civilian instructors are flying professionally - so it must all work out in the end.
Just one person views from the outside looking in.

USMCFLYR

We are starting to see jet guys getting pushed to t-34's when they check in. Needless to say, they are highly upset. Like everywhere else, they are having manpower issues.

I'm not sure about how Meridian does business but SERGRAD's hardly ever teach phase II. Every once in a while you might have one instruct WEPS or ONAV's which I don't agree with. On the other hand, I don't agree with E2/C2 or P-3 guys teaching it either.

From what I've seen flying various AMC aircraft, FAIPs fall into 2 categories:

1: those who are good pilots, willing to learn and can take instruction in a CREW aircraft from both officer and ENLISTED (something not often taught in AETC)
2: those who think they're great, find every opportunity to exhibit their "knowledge" and skills at the expense of learning, and fail to listen to senior enlisted loadmasters/engineers (a good way to loose your bags in Uganda while on a 3 week trip -- oops).

Basically it will fall on your personality that will make or break you in the real world (Non-AETC). I'm sure the FAIP gig is fun and has it's perks and I'll take some flak for my next comment. But, I see that as a high school kid who still lives with his parents after graduation. Sure, sticking with what you know is easy and flying the same plane after graduation with the same mission day in and day out has it's benefits, but until you actually execute the missions which the AF is designed around, it doesn't seem very gratifying. Stop trying to predict the future. If you stay as a FAIP or go to another aircraft - at the end of 10 years you should have more than enough hours to have a good resume for any airline job should you decide to go that route. Whatever you do, do not burn bridges, and don't be a Dick. The students you have a as a FAIP will be your aircraft commanders/instructors/examiners in your next life. You may make it to IP in your next jet in just 6 months, but credibility in the jet is a whole different issue--enlisted personnel will can make or break you regardless of your level of effort as a pilot. Staying at a UPT base for 4 years you will have a lot of students and they will remember YOU if you give them reason to.

You have some good points there. What will make you a good MWS pilot isn't being a FAIP, it's being a good pilot. If you're an A-hole/moron FAIP, odds are you be the same kind of MWS guy. That I've definately seen.

You have an excellent point about lack of enlisted in AETC. Personally, I've never seen a problem with it but I'm sure it's happened.

True statement that your students will follow, and remember you. I had a bud run into a FAIP he had bad memories of. FAIP was inprocessing, bud ran training. I've no idea how, but he managed to get this guy back through chem defense training...the one where you take your mask off in a tent full of CS. Seven years after I left AETC I walk into new squadron DOV to drop off my FEF, the two EPs in there were two guys I gave Tweet checkrides to. I didn't remember them, you can believe they remembered me. I asked them if I'd been a d!ck to fly with. Then said nevermind, guess I'll find out on my checkride.

As for the living with folks after high school comment...ouch. Probably a good thing you didn't FAIP, definately a good thing that not everyone thinks the same way you do. Personally I don't think anyone goes off to UPT to satisfy a lifetime desire to stay and teach UPT, I know I didn't. At the same time, I always enjoyed teaching. I didn't have a 20 year plan like the thread starter, but I was willing to do it. In my case, it came with a guarenteed follow on, one that I wanted. That was enough for me.

Far as RTUs--different subject entirely I think. Nothing wrong with thread creep but RTU instructing is worlds away from UPT. In my world I wouldn't mind teaching our RTU--but for the fact that it's located in Altus OK, a place I'd be too happy to never see again.

Far as lack of experience in FAIPs--tough question, and one the AF bounces around on repeatedly. They've had FAIPs, gotten rid of them, brought them back, repeat. Kind of like everything else in AF come to think of it.

Drawbacks to FAIPs are clear, you have very inexperienced guys teaching.

On the other hand, you get guys who are young and hungry and whose minds aren't clouded with memories of flying other planes other places. They're statistically less likely to have families that will mind 12 hour days. And, any tribe needs Indians. If you don't have an Lt's, who does the Lt work/jobs? Sounds funny, but it's a real concern. If everyone is a Capt, now it's a fight for Flt CC, you got some dudes that can't get the resume they need, you're hurting careers.

Far as experience "in the fleet" goes. Hard to say, I'll just disagree I guess. I repeat something I wrote above, if it comes down to passing a checkride, students are invariably better off talking to guy who has lived and breathed AETC in this particular jet than the MWS guys. If you want to know what life is like in a particular plane, or what combat is like, or any of a million other UPT questions, of course you talk to the MWS guy.

I was a FAIP, so my opinion is skewed. I was also a flying 'ho, by the end of my second year I had more PIC time than vast majority of guys coming from MWS. I had more total time than quite a few actually. Of course, I had more experience flying a Tweet in bad weather than they did too.

So, what's the right answer, I don't know. I think UPT would be disastrous if it was nothing but FAIPs, but I think doing away with it would also be a mistake. In a flight room you have a wide range of experience for the students to soak up.

[QUOTE]Our FRS used to be totally separate but now we fall under the BIG training command (CNATRA) - they have come up with basically the "cradle to grave" concept. Btw - being a native Oklahoman I understand your sentiments about Altus.;)
Same thing with Naval aviation. The SERGRAD program has come and gone through the ages it seems. Usually based on just needs of the service and personell - not having anything to do with the validity of SERGRADS being good instructors or not.
I haven't been in our training squadrons for some time but at least in our FRSs there is a good mix of the chiefs and indians as you put it. With a bunch of seniority in a squadron even if you are a second tour LT amongst end of tour LTs or O-4s then there are still enough indians to do the work (think coffee mess officer:))
I guess this hard argument comes down to which is better - if either is - especially if you are looking at follow on employment in the civilian world. Is an hour of AETC time as good as an hour of MWS time? Instructional time versus let's say international flying that AMC might do? Hard to say and there probably isn't even a good answer in the end.

In the end - I agree with most of the posters in this thread. Do your best - let the chips fall where they may and you will more than likely enjoy all of your different experiences. Like you Sputnik - I have enjoyed instructing very much and feel that it is even a niche that I would like to continue to explore.

USMCFLYR

"As for the living with folks after high school comment...ouch. Probably a good thing you didn't FAIP, definately a good thing that not everyone thinks the same way you do. Personally I don't think anyone goes off to UPT to satisfy a lifetime desire to stay and teach UPT, I know I didn't. At the same time, I always enjoyed teaching. I didn't have a 20 year plan like the thread starter, but I was willing to do it. In my case, it came with a guarenteed follow on, one that I wanted. That was enough for me."[/QUOTE]

I wasn't trying to hurt anyone's feelings with that comment. But based upon the originator's post and as to why he is going to volunteer for the FAIP gig it seems as though he is making his decisions not because he wants to teach, but because it's the easy answer. He has his AETC issued slide rule and calculator out constructing his 10yr plan. How many people on this forum have ever had their 2-4yr plan go according to their wishes? Let alone a 10 yr plan? I too enjoy teaching. I like being able instruct a "student" in the C-17 about how to run a crew in the TACC system. It goes way beyond just the stick and rudder skills needed to pass an AETC check ride. Actual AR vs flying a T-1 20-30ft in trail in much different. A FAIP has no reference with which to offer career advice since he doesn't know anything else. Somewhere in this Forum trail it was mentioned that MWS IP in AETC guys aren't as good as the AETC FAIPs at UPT. It not that we aren't as good. It's just that we don't get so wrapped up emotionally in the anal retention factor which is naturally fostered within AETC. We've been jerked around by halfwit careerists in Illinois enough to realize some things just don't matter. We have a great family, a car/house that's paid for, and travelled to lots of places civilians pay lots of money to go see. We get to serve our country in Operations not seen on CNN or only reported on as an afterthought. There's a sense of accomplishment that's more than just -- trying to determine where are we going to lunch today on the T-1 cross country. I would think that it would be better from a bigger perspective to go to an MWS first and then back to AETC. Especially if you're going to start a family 3-5 years after UPT graduation.

I'll be the first to admit that much of the UPT aviation skills are lost within the first 2 years of flying the C-17. The sheer amount of info provided by the HUD and MFDs allows one to become lax in basic aviation skill sets (descent rates, NDBs, circles, etc.) Based on your comments I'm assuming you are at least an IP by now. It's up to us to ensure that the stick and rudder skills are second nature and allow one to progress to the level of taking a crew around the world safely. That ability will be based upon your personality and ability to react to change at a moments notice. Those FAIPs that I've seen succeed the most in AMC are those who realize that flying the C-17 goes way beyond having good general knowledge and flying ability. It's about applying that knowledge on your own when there's no one in the tower to offer you advice.

I just wanted to set the record straight that I don't think FAIPs are weak or any worse that those of us who were never FAIPs. But, it is a different skill set being an instructor in AMC than AETC. Much of who you become in your next life after AETC (and the Air Force) will be driven by your personality.

Don't be a D--K.

Wow, this is a huge discussion! I certainly have my opinions and I'd be happy to share them in greater detail. However, for the time being, I'll leave you with this:

Option 1: do everything that your current boss thinks that you need to do in order to _______ (get promoted / get your #1 follow on choice / avoid UAVs / etc). You can follow his/her advice and you have a 50% chance of getting screwed because the rules always change.

Option 2: do everything that YOU want to do NOW, WHERE you want to do it. You can follow your heart and have a 50% chance of getting screwed because the rules always change. But you have a higher chance of finding happiness.

[QUOTE=USMCFLYR;458541]I've been at Charleston, Altus, Dover, and I spent a lot of time at McGuire. Hands down, ALTUS was the best assignment. Why? Because I flew a lot, got really good, had every single weekend off, and I was out there with an awesome group of people. Altus sucks as a student, but it's an incredible assignment as an IP.

- Meet a TON of reserve/guard contacts for potential follow on assignment
- Once an Altus IP, you become somewhat of a USAF asset, and if you decide to stay in the AF, it'll improve your odds of coming back to the C-17.
- Get a lot of very good flying that the airlines generally respect - lots of heavy jet glass time as the sole qualified guy.
- For the most part, get the follow on assignment of your choice.

This is the biggest FAIP drawback. An even bigger problem is when FAIPs start teaching to students things they've "heard" from MWS guys. When I was an IFF instructor, I could not believe some of the crap that T-38 FAIPs were teaching, all in the name of "this is how the fighter guys do it". Usually said technique was 3rd or 4th hand, and learned from another FAIP!

Also spot on.

If you're referencing something I wrote, let me just clarify that is not what I meant. Somewhere several pages back in response to someone writing in essence that FAIPs all suck, I pointed out that in my time in UPT the absolute worst IPs were MWS guys. I did NOT mean that all or even a significant portion of MWS guys were bad instructors, merely that if you looked at the worst instructors in the squadron, they were all guys their MWS's had never upgraded but instead flushed to white jets.

In other words, I'm not disagreeing with you, I just wanted to claify what I wrote earlier, which quite possibly has nothing to do with what you just wrote.

If you've been an Altus IP, my hat's off to you. I'm in awe of each and every guy who taught me AR there. If you're referencing being an IP in the jet at a standard base, sorry I just disagree with you there. There is an enormous difference (in my book) between what you do at McChord and what they do at Altus. Riddler I'm sure can throw in his own opinions on that (and I'd like to hear them) but I've never considered anything I've done as an IP in this jet to be anywhere near what guys at Altus do. Nor do I feel like I've been trained to, but that's a different subject. And I also never compare it to flying primary at UPT.

On the 10 year plan, I absolutely agree with you. It's good to have a plan but that one was a bit detailed. I'm pretty sure in 4 years or so we'll be seeing guys go from being FAIPs straight to UAVs.

The biggest point I agree with is your "don't be a d$%k" closing remark. Doesn't matter your background, if you don't follow that one you're going to have problems.

I walked out of ACIQ wondering which way was up. I could tell anyone anything they wanted to know about flying a Tweet in South Central Texas, and some great cross country advice to both coasts, but I knew **** all about flying cargo international. But I learned.

[quote=Riddler;458870]I'm glad you enjoyed it. I for one have never had a problem with the choice assignments going to Altus guys, I really think they've earned the right to go front of the line. As a former AETC guy I get the "it's far better as an IP than student" but it's just not somewhere I want to live. I actually vol'ed to go there (I was five months into deployment at the time) then changed my mind.

For me, two drawbacks
- Really didn't want to live there
- I really like operational flying.

I would have been just fine, and enjoyed all the things you talked about, but I in no way whatsoever regret the decision to not go. Nor, more importantly, does my wife.

Still, maybe I'll end up there next, who knows.

[quote=Sputnik;459059]Sputnik -

I'll take for granted that you were speaking to Riddler here and not me although the quote box makes it look like I said those things about Altus.
I might have lived in OK, but I haven't been to Altus more than a few times. There are too many Marines there though there are a few next door in Lawton learning how to pull the lanyard and mae big booms!

USMCFLYR

Clarified
 

Consider it clarified. I know my squadron and others did do this. We were left with no other choices -- an FEB would have been the other alternative. Coincidentally with this discussion, it was a FAIP that we had to "return to sender". He just couldn't deal with the ever changing nature of the business.

It would seem we agree with most things, we just have different backgrounds. As for going to altus I was in the same boat. I truly considered going there for the family life, but couldn't bring myself to go back to oklahoma. 1 yr at Vance AFB was enough for me. My wife also understands now why I wouldn't want to go. A long time ago she thought it would be great because the majority of her family is in Dallas. But realized a few years later that that would be a bit too close.

Have fun flying out there and fly safe. I'm sure we'll all be at ETAR or ETAD in bravo backup in the near future.