Thinking about FAIPing
 

Just track selected a few weeks ago and ended up receiving a Tone. I was a bit disappointed at first because I really wanted 38's and knew I had a pretty good shot at them being in the top 5, but we only received 2 and our number one and number two guy got them. I'm definitely cool with it though. Honestly I think it is a much safer route to avoiding UAV's and ultimately maximizing your time in the cockpit.

Anyways all through Phase II my IP's always told me I had FAIP written all over me and thought I would make a great FAIP. Prior to starting UPT I never really even considered wanting to FAIP, but now I'm actually considering making it my number one choice.

I'm just looking for some advice on whether it's a wise decision or not. You see I'm thinking FAIPing sounds like a pretty safe way to avoid UAV's and hopefully guarantee yourself a MWS follow on with possibly 2 back to back ops tours or one ops tour followed by a schoolhouse tour ultimately maximizing your time in the cockpit and also maximizing your time in the left seat.

Honestly I'm about 99% sure I only want to do 10 years active duty right now and then I would like to go into the guard/reserves and pick up an airline gig. No I'm not planning my exit so early in my career, but I've seen what active duty is all about and I have absolutely no desire to do anything, but fly. I was definitely that guy on the first day of Phase I looking at the guard/reserve guys in my class thinking why in the hell did I not take that route. Haha.:D No really it's all good though. I'm just so happy that I have been given a chance to fly as a military aviator and wouldn't trade it for the world.

I know it's tough to plan your career in the military because we really have very little say on where we go, but I'm thinking I'd like to FAIP for the first 3 years then go fly 135's/KC-10's for the next 4 years then possibly teach at Altus or back to a UPT base for the last 4 years then try to get picked up by the 135 reserve unit that is in my hometown.

What do you all think? Once again I know I will have very little say in what I would like to do, but considering FAIPing is not usually at the top of everyone's list and there are a ton of tankers I figure I would have pretty good shot at making most of that happen.

I definitely would like to get out in the fight as soon as possible, but I also have other reasons for wanting to FAIP like my wife is still working on her Masters and getting her career started and I don't really want to rush her considering she has a really good job prospect opening up in the same town as my UPT base and that would definitely make it easier to get her career started if she took that opportunity to get into the field and gain experience.

Honestly I also had an absolute blast in Phase II. Yeah sure there were some parts that I didn't like, but overall I definitely enjoyed myself and I think I could definitely enjoy it for 3 more years and I think I would make a pretty decent IP.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I still haven't decided whether I would like to FAIP T-6's or T-1's. I've heard you get more time in Tones and it's obviously better time being twin engine jet time, but I'm thinking teaching Phase II would be a lot more fun and rewarding getting to see students go from barely being able to taxi an aircraft to flying within 10ft of another aircraft solo in about 4 months.

Thanks!:D

Don't you want to see what being in a fleet squadron is all about? Go on a deployment and see the world? Fly a more complex aircraft? FAIP one year...go for it. Three years...no way! You can always come back and instruct not to mention the studs will give you credibility.

There's no fleet in the AF. Don't take AF career advice from a Marine. Take the FAIP tour, it'll be better for your marriage and most likely give you two ops tours back to back.

Yeah that's the problem I have with it. If you FAIP you miss out on the "Lt Good Deal" that all my IP's told me about of being a Co and flying right seat with with very little responsibility except for flying your a$$ off and deploying. A good friend of mine is a co on KC-10's right now and he is having a blast. Trust me it's definitely a hard decision. I'm just trying to do what's best for my both my wife and I and to be honest FAIPing looks like a lot of fun and most all of the FAIP's at my base receive a ton of respect.

Of course, it sounds like you'll pick pretty high on the list right now based on UPT performance. Once you're in the FAIP pool, who knows where you'll shake out as far as preferences go - could be that you **** off the CC over the next 3 years and get that UAV anyway.

There is no crystal ball, but bird in the hand.....

(Not to mention that I am opposed to the whole FAIP program, anyway. Anybody that can be a good FAIP can be an even better instructor after flying in the "fleet" for an assignement or two.)

Haha.

I know anythings possible, but do you think a guy that FAIPs then does one ops tour has a chance of receiving a staff tour after that or do they try to at least give you two ops/one white jet or one ops/two white jet tours prior to them sending you to the desk? I know ALO's and UAV's would be a possibility, but is a traditional staff tour a possibility early on in your career like that?

Don't want to sound harsh, but if that was your number one concern you should not have joined the USAF. We need pilots who are able to focus on the mission - do a few operational assignments and then you will have earned the right to take a stateside "good deal" (shore duty as the Navy calls it) to take care of the family. The first couple of assignments are where you learn the most - and the quality of the USAF has not gone up now that we're more kindler, gentler, and focused on the family. They don't call it a sacrifice for nothing.

Who knows? A lot can change in the AF by the time your next assignment rolls around. You have to make the best choice you can based on the reality at the time of your drop.

Yeah that scares me too. During my final feedback in Phase II my flight commander told me that "I definitely don't like to kiss a$$", but my peers ranked me high and I had great scores so I ended up still ranking high. He definitely said playing the game wasn't my strong point and that's something I should work on. He was cool about it though and liked that I was a no bs "straight shooter", but made it clear to try and change that in Phase III.

So yeah that might not help me receive a good assignment out of my FAIP tour and is ultimately one of the big reasons why I don't plan on doing 20 years of AD. Honestly I joined the Air Force to fly fighters and kill as many f'ng terrorists as I could, but now that I won't be able to do that I think I'd rather at least pass gas to the guys that are dropping the bombs, have a ton of fun along the way, and not give a damn about SOS, OPR bullets, or any of that BS for the next 10 years then hopefully a guard/reserve unit would like to take me on as part of their team. I know it's the wrong attitude to have and everyone should be a "company' man, but I just can't buy into it. Sorry, I digress...:D

I'd call 4 years in Vance a sacrifice. He didn't create the FAIP tour and the AF didn't create it for 'family'. You don't get many choices in the military. When offered one or more, do what's best for you. You're still contributing to the fight whether your dropping bombs, hauling MRE's, or producing more pilots for the CAF.

Oh no doubt I couldn't agree more, but it's a fact that the Air Force loves FAIPs and they need to fill the positions with someone so why not use someone that would enjoy the position and do a great job at it. I'm not trying to take any good deal's away from the guys who have been deployed for the past 4 years. I would give up my FAIP tour to an ops guy in a heart beat if it was up to me.

You think you're not going to see that in an operational squadron? :eek:

Haha. I know I'll probably see it more in an ops squardon, but at least by that time the aircraft I'll be flying will have already been decided. Unfortunately then you'll have to "play the game" to avoid UAV or ALO assignments. :eek:

I was a "Super FAIP"... 4 years at UPT followed by 1.5 years at PIT teaching new IPs... then off to F-15Es for 2.5 tours... would not change a thing. Enjoyed every minute.

Except that E after F-15 (had to be said):D

"but I've seen what active duty is all about and I have absolutely no desire to do anything, but fly"

Fly6784 -

I have to disagree with the above sentence. If all you have done is UPT - you have not seen the "fleet" the AD force or anything else that you want to call it. Even if you are prior enlisted - you have not seen AD from the view that you are about to see it!

FAIPing is not my favorite thing either - the whole concept of it but I understand the need and it seems to be a pretty good program in the military; but I have to say - I wanted to get out to a "fleet" squadron as son as possible. That is what I joined for.

I feel for the not wanting to be a "company man" and only wanting to fly - and no one should complain about your dedication to the service or your country if you are wiling to give up 10+ years of your life in service - so if it is your plan to leave after 10 years and pursue a professional flying career then more power to you.

Good luck in your decision.

USMCFLYR

One thing to consider...as a faip you are going to do great at your faip base, but once you move on to something else, you'll still be a faip. You'll be competing for promotion and good deals with other guys that have been in your new weapons system for a while. I don't know how it is in the mobility business, but it can be pretty tough on the fighter side. You'll be at the point in your career when you need to be a flight commander, but won't even be qualified to be a flight lead yet. It can obviously be overcome, and has been by a lot of great guys, but it is an obstacle you'll have to deal with.

But, like you said, it's probably a great way to avoid UAV's.

Couple things to consider.

No matter how well you do in your FAIP tour, you go thru another selection process driven by the needs of the Air Force in 3 years. Saw a few guys at END that did well as FAIPs only to get the Dreaded AWACS. That C-17 or -10 may not be there in 3 years. However, no matter what you fly you will be doing something worthwhile, its what you make of it.

In three years no one knows what will happening nor where.

Some prior Faips would probably have a better idea what you face when you finally get operational. My personal opinion is that T-6 IP would be a blast, but flying around the flag pole would get old. Plus the UPT formal show and relese crap is in full effect on that side.

T-1 IP is pretty dull (I was one), but it has its moments, and the CT XC cannot be beat. You also get to fly when the 38s an 37s are stop launch. And you have a great AC. And not so much of the UPT crap.

Second what everyone has said about not knowing where you will be 10 years down the road. I can tell you that nearly no one in my UPT class has had a career that mirrored what they expected upon graduation.

My first bit of advice to all UPT students is to do your absolute best and let the chips fall where they may. If, for some reason, you ended up in an assigment you didn't want - it would be better to know that you did your best and the needs of the service prevailed rather than knowing that you got a less than desirable assignment because you didn't work as hard as you should have.

My last bit of advice to new guys is that every MWS plays a larger role in the overall effort than you can imagine. I flew strategic airlift/tankers before I flew fighters (there is one big sign that you can't predict a career path). While I played a significant tactical role in the fighter, I played a global role in the heavy. For a while, if it was on the national news, I was there. I also did the AETC thing after all of that, playing a role in the next generation of military pilots. With all of those missions, the only one where I was able to realistically predict what things were going to be like was the AETC tour.

You keep mentioning 'playing the game'. I understand that. I didn't 'play the game' and let every one know that I didn't 'play the game'. After about 6yrs that while I was a front line IP, one of the stick-and-rudder guys, I realized that my chances of going beyond Major or at best, Lt.Col were severely limited.

Some guys were blatant suck-ups and they never saw anything wrong with anything. At some point, they usually crossed someone or hitched their ride to the wrong guy and their star fell.

Then there were the screw-ups who were constantly in someone's office explaining something that happened. Their star never rose.

Then there was the group I was in.. I didn't 'play the game' and I was on the edge. I knew where the limits were and stayed just in bounds. When my commitment was up, I got out... everyone was happy with that decision.

Then there was a fourth group that had the respect of the others in the squadron, could fly the airplane and were problem solvers. Those were the ones that made 'full bull and on.

So, if nothing else, don't push it that you are not going to 'play the game'. Someone is going to cut you off at the knees if given the chance. It happens not only in a Squadron or in the USAF but in any flying community.

We have a crucial shortage of those kinds of leaders...the guys who never set out to be Commanders or pad their resume, but were given commands because they simply deserved it.:cool:

Being a FAIP is the best kept secret the Air Force/military has to offer. Why do I say this?

Where else (military or civilian) do you start a flying job logging Instructor PIC on a multi-engine turbofan aircraft with a type rating, logging large number of landings and instrument approaches a day ???

Had I known then what I know now, I would have tried to be a FAIP.

-Fatty

That may explain why the USAF is having such a hard time when hauled before Congress.

The son of a friend has been in now for x yrs... recently made Lt. Col and got a squadron. He is a hard worker who looks out for his guys/gals, focuses on solving problems and getting things done. A while back he got some crappy assignments and we talked. I told him, "you're either golden or a turd when you come out of them. Do good work and you're golden. **** and moan and grind through them and you're a turd. Unfortunately, there is no in-between."

Unless he really stumbles, I think he has full bull in the bag and probably 1 star. It gets real thin above Colonel. I remember our wing commander getting his star and laughing about his 'demotion'. He said, "As a wing commander and Colonel, I had some pull.. I could get a few things done. I got to tell people what to do. As a 1 star I am the 2nd Lt of the group. I'm the go-fer. Everyone tells me what to do."

He solved problems and retired with 3 stars.

What difference does that make? After 10 years of flying, I can see no benefit for having had a bunch of landings 8 years ago. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure that all those landings won't mean much when compared to any MWS IP - whether you are trying to go civilian or further militarily.

I hate to get this off topic, but I would not know where else to find this information........
FLY6584 said only two T38s were given out to his class.......Anybody out there know what the T-38 drops will be looking like for the near future up to say 2 years from now? Are T-38 slots going to be increasing or decreasing?

And UAVs.....I know they are increasing, and I can only imagine them increasing more, but if someone has some numbers or educated speculation than fire away.

Or is there simply no way to tell whats coming down the pipe?

It is really hard to say whats going to happen, but for the time being I don't foresee 38 slots increasing anytime in the near future unless they start rolling out a ton of F35's and need pilots to fill the cockpits. Just my opinion though.

As far as UAVs go let's just say that over the next year or two the Air Force needs about 1100 new UAV pilots and considering the Air Force trains about 1500 pilots a year that's a pretty scary situation. I definitely think they will start a separate pipeline, but Gates wants UAV's right now and unfortunately that's what the Air Force has to give him so I would definitely expect FY09 classes to receive UAV's and I have also heard that C-17 copilots will be a huge target for them also.

Honestly I hope you're right. I am going by my limited time on Active Duty and what I hear from those above me so hopefully the politics won't be as bad as I think they will.

I just realized going through Phase II and seeing the difference between the Active Duty Major/Lt Col IP's and the Reserve Major/Lt Col IP's who I wanted to be in 10 years. The Active Duty guys who are considered to be lucky enough to receive a flying tour so late in their career just looked so much more stressed out and it seemed like they barely flew. They were more busy getting ready for ORI's and dealing with a bunch of BS while the Reservists just looked like some of the happiest dudes who loved what they were doing, had very little stress, and had great airline jobs on the side. On top of that the reservists were usually some of the best IP's too. I really almost felt bad for the Active Duty Majors and Lt Col's in my squadron.

Good to hear.

So if you had to do it over again what would you have done differently? Would you have tried to be more like the guys in that 4th group or would you do it the same?

We are not talking about a T-38 are we? turbo-jet.. not fan. The J-38/CJ-610 is a straight pipe. We used it on the early Learjets.

And I didn't realize it had a type rating that came with it. ??

I'm pretty sure he is talking about the T-1 which is a multiengine turbo fan that comes with a Beech 400 type rating.

When I came out of UPT, we were told 'do a combat tour and you will get your choice of assignments.' I could have gone elsewhere but all the fighters were gone so I chose 02s as a FAC. In the theatre I wrote everyone and applied to all the various boards and even tried to extend to get into OV-10s. I also wrote on my 'dream sheet' I didn't want to be in SAC. So.. down comes my assignment and I not only get -135s but I also get a crappy northern tier base. I was not happy.

My commander in Vietnam said, "here are the rules, here is the airplane, here is the area of operations.. go do you job and I will be there to back you up."

In SAC it was a real culture shock. From being given a wide latitude to do your job to having to ask for permission for everything.. I didn't adapt. Also, because I had completed one tour, I was now a SAC 'asset' and I was not going anywhere although I continued to apply for various assignments. Knowing I had no chance at fighters, no chance of going to another command, I figured 'screw it.' I did my job as best as I could but I was one of the rogues you read about in Kern's books. I have some pictures around here of us refueling 2 F-4s and we (the two tankers) are in fingertip with me sitting about 50-70ft off leads wing.

Long way of saying I realized I was not going to have any choices of my assignments or bases and I was not willing to let some guy at Randolph pick my name out of a hat and send me to West-bumphuque. In retrospect, I was not the best officer and due to my rogue nature, not the best pilot. I admired the guys who did put in the effort and I have learned there is a way you can voice your concerns without having to kick over the table. ;)

Go FAIP, it's the best deal going out of T-1s. Get your 3 years in, and hence avoid the inexperienced poolie status for the UAV, work for an AETC ops to ops if you can stomach it, and ride out the current administration and AF policy on palace chase. Do your networking with your Guard/Reserve units of interest and once you get the up and up from AFPC pull the trigger and attempt the palace chase. Worse thing that can happen is you burn bridges which is not that bad considering you're not looking into putting in 20 (although be careful, that active duty paycheck is addicting, I don't care how many SWA/FDX types say otherwise, you can't beat govt cheese and IMO the airlines are not to par pay wise with the stability of that AD paycheck).

I can tell you the ARC lifestyle is much better, my AD counterparts are not a happy bunch, granted I have my own financial hardships as a bum but I'm happy with that opportunity cost. I'm not interested in pursuing the airline (noooo thanks) but if that rat race floats your boat no better way to supplement it (as long as you don't double commute) than being a Guard/Reserve guy. Don't listen to the AD pay your dues "got the T-shirt" crowd, you can pull as much "volunteer opportunities" to the hell hole locales as you want in the Guard/Reserve, to check that container. Rack up that TPIC in AETC, have fun flying your tail off, and try to get picked up by the Guard/Reserves, if you are interested in flying consistently past year 10 of wearing a bag. Good luck.

I wouldn't recommend being a FAIP. I was an IP in a MWS by the time a FAIP graduating at the same time showed up at the squadron as a co-pilot. It's hard to ever catch up. You might catch up by the time you're a major, maybe not. Some guys catch on to an ops unit, others never shake the UPT mindset. In my experience, one FAIP was awesome, two never went anywhere in my particular little corner of the AF. In addition, I vividly remember the MWS guys in my Tweet flight ridiculing the FAIPs as snot-nosed LTs who could barely find their way home from the area much less actually teach anyone to fly. Looking back on it as an IP/EP/WIC guy, I think they were right. That wasn't official policy, of course, but that's what they said at the bar. FWIW. Good luck.

P.S. You say you want to do your 10 and get out, but you can't predict the future. The commercial aviation industry is in a nose dive with no end in sight. Also, it's not so easy these days to walk off the street into a guard/reserve unit. As competition increases, more and more units resort to the "bro" network, which can be a tough network to break into, especially if your credentials aren't tight.

Concurr with Deuce...I've seen guys who handled it well, but it can be tough to go from being a stan/eval or check-section FAIP to wingman or co-pilot in a MWS. You'll be co-pilot or wingman to guys that are under you in age and rank until you get caught up. But you'll be too old to just concentrate on flying by then. You'll be at the age where you need to be a shop chief or flight commander while you're still trying to learn the new jet. Not to mention that you'll already be too old for WIC, if you wanted to do something like that.

I've heard the total opposite. A lot of my IP's including a couple 135 guys said if I FAIP first then go fly 135's I will upgrade to AC in a couple months(still flying with very strong/senior co's), make IP within 6 months to a year, then become an evaluator after about a year or so. To me that sounds like a pretty good deal. You're definitely maximizing PIC time and getting a lot of the PIC time early on in your career so if that Palace Chase opportunity presents itself down the road you'll be in better to take advantage of it compared to the guy who went straight to a MWS out of UPT spent 2-2.5 years trying to get to the left seat then when they finally get there they have very little time in the seat and then get sent to a white jet tour lose currency in their MWS, but do the ATC thing for 4 years and then they have to try and get back in a MWS not to mention if that 3rd tour is close to the end of your 10 year commitment and you go to a MWS and get qualified in that you will end up incurring an additional ADSC.

On the flip side I definitely agree with nwaf16dude concerning FAIPing as a fighter guy. I have also heard it really screws fighter guys because they do get so far behind and it takes them a while to upgrade to 2 ship FL then 4 ship FL then IP then evaluator and makes it much harder to get to WIC.

Personally I would be more than happy as a 9 year Major flying the line as an IP knowing I'll never make Lt Col. I know guard/reserve units are hit or miss, but with all the tanker units out there and as long as you aren't a d-bag I would imagine it shouldn't be too hard to get a slot considering you'll probably already be an IP/Evaluator in their MWS. Who knows though. I'm not too familiar with how the guard/reserves aside from them preferring dudes that have roots in the area who would actually like to settle down in that town and not move for the rest of their career.

Exactly what I am thinking. I do have to disagree with you on the the pay argument...

During my casual status I worked at the Airman Family Readiness Center on base where a lot people go to when they are separating from the military to get help on transitioning to the civilian field. Well a lot of our "customers" were VSPers coming in to do mock airline interviews with our interview guy. Anyways I was shocked at how many dudes were getting out and really had no idea if it was a wise financial decision that they were making so I did some research and my research is actually what led me to this site.

As you may or may not know a casual LT has A LOT of time on their hands working at their casual job so I began to develop this excel file to analyze the different career scenarios that are presented to a military pilot in hopes our transition office could use it to provide further guidance to those seeking separation from the military.

Well I spent a lot of time on this excel file and it ended up being a very elaborate file that analyzed many different possible scenarios using pay charts from many different airlines. What I found was that it was definitely a lot smarter financially to get out at 10 years if you were able to get picked up Southwest, Fedex, or UPS(go figure:o). That's without even taking into account a possible guard/reserve job. Unfortunately for most of the other airlines it was pretty much a wash most of the time and didn't really matter whether you got out at 10 or 20.

Anyways I'm sure what I'm telling you probably is already common knowledge, but I found it interesting. Ultimately like you said nothing can replace the security of that government pay check though so then it comes down to what makes you the most happy and that's something all of us will just have to answer when the time comes I guess.

I think the guys who told you that are dead wrong. The guy who goes to a MWS right out of UPT almost always has it over the guy who was a FAIP. There are exceptions, however. I also think you've already talked yourself into it. Good luck, hopefully it turns out for the best.

That's very easy to say as a Lieutenant.

Have you considered the C-21? Best of both worlds, you should upgrade to IP/EP by the end of your tour and than go right to AC upgrade in your MWS follow on. Great flying experiences and lots of fun too...now if only they keep them around.