HercDriver130

Just wondering what the consensus is of those on the board. I graduated from UPT 87-03 Jan 1987 at Willy. A friend of mine ( retired F-4/F-16 ) guy is a sim instructor at a UPT base. He contends that washing a guy out of UPT today nearly takes an act of congress. Further, that guys are given repeated chances over and over and over again. My own experience albeit some 22 years ago is of a program that was generally very unforgiving... i.e... three hooked events in a row and you were sitting "casual" ( waiting for reassignment) note: my class had a 60% washout rate!! ....... So what says the board today?

LivingInMEM

As someone who has very recent AETC experience and who graduated UPT in the early '90's, there is a difference. Back in "the day", everyone admitted that anyone could learn to fly given enough sorties. The problem was, the USAF didn't want anyone who could fly. They wanted only those who could lean to fly in the specified number of sorties in each block. They couldn't replicate combat to see how you dealt with stress, so they created the stress through the syllabus.

Now, the mentality is exactly opposite. As a matter of fact, a quote from a CBM Wing CC was "Given enough bananas you could teach a monkey to fly, and we have plenty of bananas." There are even isolated cases where students washed out of a program on one base and were sent to another base to complete the program. In a few of the cases, they were allowed ot start over because they had "so much time off." After they passed the 2nd time, the leadership pointed out that the correct decision had been made due to their success - all while completely ignoring the fact that almost anyone can pass a program if given 2 entire attempts at it. It isn't just USAF, there was a Navy student in '02 who took twice as many sorties to get to the safe for solo check as the syllabus dictated. This particular student went on to South Field to get winged with a 16 NSS when it was supposedly "25 to stay alive." Then there was the student who got attritted from VT-6 twice, VT-2 once, and VT-3 once - don't know if he ever was actually forced out or if he graduated - the Commodore kept kicking him back.

HercDriver130

Holy crap...and this is the NORM? Hell when I went through we washed a guy out 3 weeks before graduation in T-38 Form, and he was going to a Starlifter!!! ( for you young guys this was when EVERYone went thru &-37 and T-38 tracks... only difference was a couple 4 ship form rides for the FAR/FAIP guys and and extra solo cross country for the TTB guys ) I agree, the attitude was complete the training in XXX amount of sorties ( with a few thrown in as 88 or 89 rides ) or you didnt make it!!! If I remember correctly you either soloed ( t-37 ) on ride 8 or 9 ( or something close to that ) or you were gone...period...end of story. Actual numbers from my class? 66 started...27 original graduated... plus we had three MEDICAL washbacks... different time and place I guess.

UAL T38 Phlyer

For those who don't know SNAP means "Sensitive New-Age Pilot." It seems that the curriculum was toned-down to not offend anyone about 8 years ago.

I was Willy; 84-03. Started with 70; graduated 52. Yes, it was VERY easy to get washed out back then. I have seen guys recently get washed-out at Columbus, but it is much more difficult. It is usually after being re-instated at least once, and sometimes twice. One guy recently was given nearly 30 extra rides.

The cut really happens at IFF now. It has to happen someplace...flying a fighter is not a right, it's a priveledge.

HercDriver130

I take it IFF is like the old "Fighter Lead-in Training"..... so are not those guys already winged at that point.... then what?


FWIW... the Majors and Lt. Cols I flew with as a new copilot on the Herc in 1987 believed that UPT they went thru was more difficult as well.... hence my question today.

USMCFLYR

In my recent 3 years at the FRS we should have washed out approximately 4-6 replacement pilots. We have washed out ZERO. Like stated above - we let one guy who was about 2/3rds complete to start ALL OVER again! It does nearly take an act of congress to boot a guy. It costs so much money to get a guy to the FRS that they figure it is a waste of time, money and effort to then lose a guy.

USMCFLYR

Hacker15e

Yes, IFF is the new LIFT.

Even that program became eviscerated in the latest move placing the IFF squadrons back at the UPT bases (2006-present).

Slice

I went through in 2000 and there were a few in my class that wouldn't have made it in the 'old school' for sure.

LivingInMEM

IFF used to be the screen, when it was geographically separated from the UPT wings that sent the less than qualified pilots. After the BRAC-mandated move in '07, IFF went back to the individual UPT bases - and the same Wing CC's that won't wash out a UPT student CERTAINLY won't wash out a graduated product of that same UPT system from IFF.

HercDriver130

It may save them money in the short run.... but what about long term quality of graduates and performance.....???? Oh.. I know... those guys will be long retired probably when that guy kills himself or someone else.....