HBC AT-6 not good enough for Air Force
 

Could someone please explain to me how something like this happens. It appears the AT-6 is a superior aircraft and it's made in USA. :eek:

Hawker Beechcraft protests trainer contract

It probably came down to cost, not superiority.

Also it would be illegal for the executive branch to inject itself into a competition mid-stream. Maybe you could write the RFP to require that all or some of the work is done in the US, but of course there would be tit-for-tat repercussions overseas.

I agree it is probably not the airplane, it's probably worries about HBC becoming insolvent and folding. I spent a little time working there, and I sure did not get warm happies about their long term longevity. HBC is currently restructuring/ headed for bankruptcy. They have been bleeding red constantly since 2008. Embraer is absolutely killing them in their market segment.

Embraer promotional materials also like to tell you that it is because their Super Tucano is a battle proven airframe and that the AT-6 s not.

Aren't the USAF Super Tucano's going to be built in Florida?

Well.....that much is true.
The T-6 can point to being a proven training aircraft, just as the Super Tucano can with many services around the world. Since they competed against each other for the JPATS contract and the T-6 won that contract. maybe they ought to focus their efforts on advertising its' strengths since the reports are saying that the AT-6 failed to meet some expectations.

The promotional material shows that much of the production line and other parts of the aircraft (like the avionics and the weapons/sensor packages are made in America. SNC has been around for awhile and has fingers in many different DoD contracts ongoing.

USMCFLYR

Ground Clearance
 

I read many months ago (so I can't remember the source) that one of the issues for the AT-6 was ground-clearance of weapons. The wing is relatively low (short struts), and it gave limited ground clearance for some of the weapons they planned to hang on it.

It may have also been a problem for the jammers (Air Force slang term for the self-propelled weapons-loading-tugs) to get under the wings. And I think they would want universal support equipment (ie, a jammer that worked on anything) to minimize the number of C-17 flights it takes to get the Ground Troops set-up in a combat location.

Clearly you have much to learn about the Air Force aquisitions process. The process *always* begins with an insane contract award, followed by 5 years of protests, followed by a reversal of the contract.

It's how we get things done in Big Blue.

That's a good one... But I thought it may be in response to HBC's CEO talking bad about Obama's administration spending or the pending F-18 contract to Brazil.... Oh well, I'd like to see the US maintain those jobs and keep building aircraft in the US. I hope that's just not wishful thinking or being naive:rolleyes:

When I worked at HQ ACC Weapons & Tactics we worked hard to kill this abortion. Of course, our protestations fell on deaf ears. Case of simply buying the cheapest possible attack aircraft we could find vs. one that actually handles the mission and can bring the pilot home. Another sad case of letting the budget drive the equipment and tactics instead of the other way around, and senior leadership ignoring the seasoned advice of their best tacticians. I'd hate to find out MY son got tapped to fly one of these. It's another A-37. And we were smart enough to ditch those ourselves way back when and give them all to the Banana Republics.

Me wonders how this is possible with all the MC-12 backlogged orders, and civilian King Air sales. Granted the Premier is not selling as expected.

Please shed more light on this !

When you say "it" or "this abortion" which aircraft are you referring to?

What prompted this statement started with the fact that an all-hands company meeting was called in summer 2010 where Bill Boisture went on at length about how HBC is in the red because Embraer is killing them on labor costs. Many of the Embraer airplanes are more cheaply made, not less quality just cost, and it is a fact that HBC literally almost pulled up the entire plant from Wichita in 2010 to find cheaper labor. In addition, they recently laid off hundreds of engineers and workers. I recall having worked there morale was always lousy and people were bailing left and right for other firms. The very guy that hired me at HBC quit a week after I got there to name one. Also, my current boss is an HBC defector and he was head of flight test. I do not have any numbers handy, just anecdotes but I'll flat out state that I think the company is on a downward spiral. I would be curious how many of the ISR King Airs they are selling. Of course there are some civvy sales like you say, but not a ton.

I would urge you to be skeptical of any aircraft company performance outlook statement based purely on back orders. It is a nearly meaningless number. There are a number of ways the back order log can be bolstered to look like something strong, when it is actually meaningless. It has no real merit until the cash is paid and the airplane is delivered. People always get so impressed by back orders. Cessna had billions of dollars in back orders in 2008 and by mid 2009 sales were so poor the company was forced to lay off half its work force, and almost went under.

I only know what I'm told and from my understanding, from a friend who worked on this program, the A-29 was the better aircraft. No details as to why though.

Interesting. It is amazing how FSI at ICT is always singing how busy Beech is, Beech this, Beech that etc Kool Aid stuff.

Me also wonders how many, really now, ISR King Airs do we really need, in light of UAV's, and other solutions.

The King Air used market, I don't see many mid-2000's and newer models for sale. So that segment must be doing pretty good, or at least nothing is for sale. Read that how you want to I suppose.

I wonder how TBM and Pilatus are affecting HBC. Why spend 6M on a new 350 when I can spend 4M on a 2007 model and get the same thing. I mean, come on.

HBC delivered something around 300 aircraft in 2011. I'd say that's more than a "downward spiral". Also, a phenom 100 was leased to compare quality to the Premier and there is no comparison. The Premier won hands down. (this was not a media ploy, no statements were ever released about it).
In response to the MC-12, according to military releases it was the most flown airframe in Afghanistan, being a much more economical platform for ISR.

Surely you do not think it is much more than one. There's isn't much lower to go than almost bankrupt.

Flying- Troubling Developments at Hawker Beechcraft

I would like to see a source on that. They would have to have ignored Premier's tendency for runway over-runs for one thing, plus totally missed the steep cost of manufacturing which was a point I made earlier.
I don't care how many they are selling, it does not change the near bankrupt status of the firm which is the central point I made. I never said HBC airplanes were not competitive airplanes in terms of quality, just that they do not appear to be as viable in the current world market. For the sake of American jobs I hope HBC survives. But things are currently pretty dismal there now, and denial of this fact does not help.

There is an old saying- recognizing your problem often supplies half of its solution.

This program should have been left with SOCOM where it belongs and call it a day. The abortion was tieing Service dollars to the acquisition and FMS/politicians getting their mitts into the process. End rant...

As my old boss would say..."This is a big chocolate mess..."

I guess I don't see how a past "tendency for overruns" affects a quality comparison.

Badly needed contract for HBC
 

DoD Reverses Decision on Hawker vs. Embraer

(R. Goyer, 03/01/12, Flying) According to Hawker Beechcraft Corporation Chairman Bill Boisture the US Air Force has decided to restore the company’s failed bid to win the potentially lucrative contract to build 20 light air support (LAARS) aircraft for delivery to Afghanistan with potential follow-on business worth up to a billion dollars. The US Air Force had previously announced that Sierra Nevada Corporation had won the competition with its entry the "Super Tucano". But HBC protested the award and claimed it had not had enough time to respond...

Watching the AF try to purchase an airplane is like watching a train wreck. I can't seem to look away from the carnage.

Reuters report says Hawker Beechcraft preparing for bankruptcy.

(M. McMillin, Wichita Eagle, 3/28/12) Reuters news service is reporting that sources say that Hawker Beechcraft is preparing to file for bankruptcy protection in the next several weeks. Hawker Beechcraft is negotiating a pre-arranged bankruptcy with its largest lenders, which includes Centerbridge Partners, Angelo Gordon and Capital Research & Management, the Reuters report said, quoting people familiar with the matter. The Wichita aircraft manufacturer was bought in 2007 by Goldman Sachs’ private equity arm and Onex Corp. for $3.3 billion from Raytheon Inc. It would be surprising if Hawker Beechcraft did not file for bankruptcy, one analyst told The Eagle. The analyst did not want his name used because he is not authorized by his company to talk to the media. “I would definitely assume that they’re filing,” the analyst said...

Hmmm... Once upon a time, Cubdriver sat among the Premier II / Hawker 200 flight test data analysis group at HBC... kinda uncomfortable lately, it would appear.
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Hawker Beechcraft bankruptcy plan outlines 3 options.

(06/17/12, M. McMillan, Wichita Eagle) Hawker Beechcraft’s Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing includes a plan called “Project Flight,” which assesses what the company could look like as it emerges from reorganization. The document, among the materials provided by Hawker Beechcraft as an exhibit when the company filed for bankruptcy last month, outlines three options, each one eliminating all or some business jet models.The “strategic options” assessment, dated April 5, gives the court and the public an indication of the direction that Hawker Beechcraft CEO Robert “Steve” Miller envisions for the debt-plagued aircraft manufacturer. In all three options, Hawker Beechcraft would keep its military aircraft, King Air and piston business. But all three options eliminate the Premier jet program and halt development of the Hawker 200, an upgraded Premier...

You might keep a job longer if you didn't talk bad about every employer. And I mean that in the very best of ways.

Just reporting the news BC, which is one of the things I do. I feel the pain of my former colleagues in Hawker 200 Analysis Group who are looking at joblessness. Best of luck during the bankruptcy proceedings you now face. I only wish for common good of the larger HBC, and while I will not readily forget the struggles HBC imposed me personally during the latter half of 2010, I do wish and want for the long-term best interests of the company as it faces bankruptcy later this year. Good luck.

Hawker Beechcraft to Be Bought by Chinese Firm

(B. Whitfield, 7/09/201, Flying) Hawker Beechcraft on Monday announced an exclusivity agreement with Superior Aviation Beijing Co. in a deal that, if completed, will allow the Chinese-based company to acquire Hawker Beechcraft for a purchase price of $1.79 billion. Hawker Beechcraft reps say Superior intends to continue present operations at the debt-plagued company while also pouring investment into the storied manufacturer’s business and GA product lines. Under the agreement, Superior would not acquire Hawker Beechcraft Defense Company, which is slated to continue its T-6 trainer program and AT-6 certification process as a separate entity. During the 45-day exclusivity period, Hawker Beechcraft and Superior – a GA parts producer owned 60 percent privately and 40 percent by the Beijing municipal government – will work to hash out the details of the agreement. If the terms aren’t agreed upon in time, Hawker Beechcraft will continue with its bankruptcy plan, which intends to see the company emerge as its own independent entity...

I'm sure you caught it, but I know a number or people have missed this tidbit, so I emphasized it for their benefit:

I'll refrain from making any comments on this one. :)

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Union, Feds Seek to Block Hawker Beechcraft Bonuses

(S. Pope, 7/31/12, Flying) A federal judge is weighing whether to allow up to $5.3 million in bonuses for eight senior Hawker Beechcraft executives after the company’s union and federal regulators criticized the payouts as a money grab. The court has approved an exclusivity agreement with Superior Aviation Beijing allowing Hawker Beechcraft to sell the company to the Chinese company for $1.79 billion. The sale would not include Hawker Beech’s defense business. The judge last week approved $1.9 million in bonuses for 31 managers. Hawker Beechcraft has defended its plan to pay larger bonuses to top executives, saying they are a "talented and capable group" that has much work left to complete before the company can emerge from bankruptcy. The U.S. Trustee agency, a government bankruptcy watchdog, said the bonus plan is little more than a "disguised retention plan" that rewards managers for remaining at the company during bankruptcy reorganization. The union, meanwhile, is trying to block not only the bonuses but also the sale itself -- although with little progress so far. The judge in the case is expected to rule [soon on the senior HBC executive request for bonuses, following a recent declaration of bankruptcy]...

From Avweb:


July 31, 2012
Some Hawker Beech Bonuses Approved
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By Russ Niles, Editor-in-Chief



At least 31 senior Hawker Beechcraft employees will receive payments totaling $1.9 million after a bankruptcy judge approved that part of the Key Employee Incentive Program that is part of the company's bankruptcy filing. However, a decision on the big prize for the company's top eight executives, bonuses totaling $5.3 million, has been deferred until Aug. 6, with the judge inviting new evidence to be considered. The company insists the bonuses are justified because taking a company out of bankruptcy and transferring its assets to another owner is a lot of work. They will also preside over the "orderly shutdown" of the business jet part of the business.

The Machinists Union is upset about the whole idea of the sale of Hawker Beech to Superior Airparts, which has an exclusivity agreement with the company to pursue a takeover worth about $1.79 billion. Superior is owned about 40 percent by Chinese interests and the union has warned the sale will give China access to technology and equipment it does not now have. As for the bonuses, the union has hit the "complete irony and hypocrisy" of awarding millions of dollars to those who have been at the helm of the company for its decline.

Looks like the bankruptcy judge just didn't see bonuses in the cards for HBC leadership right now.
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Judge Nixes Bonuses to Top Execs.

(8/27/12, R. Hegeman, AP) WICHITA, Kan. – A bankruptcy judge nixed on Friday a proposal to give eight top Hawker Beechcraft executives up to $5.3 million in bonuses, ruling the plan merely rewarded them for staying at their jobs. U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Stuart Bernstein ruled that the bonus plan sought by the Kansas plane maker set the bar too low to qualify as anything other than a retention program for insiders. Bernstein said that nothing in his opinion is meant to denigrate the efforts of top managers or minimize their contributions to the success of the bankruptcy case. But he said the so-called Key Employee Incentive Plan does not meet legal standards which require "challenging goals" before such bonuses are allowed in bankruptcy proceedings.

Wow, that may be a first. It seems like every BK I've seen the bonuses have been rubber stamped. I wish I could believe some sanity was entering the process, but I suspect that's too optimistic.

Well for all those who had to hit the road because of poor financial performance it seems a little odd to hand out pay rewards without their actually fixing anything. The judge spoke on the matter. What amazes me is the gall they had in asking for them.

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Hawker’s T-6 trainer learns to attack

(AOPA ePilot, 9/20) Hawker Beechcraft’s T-6A Texan began life as a trainer, but has reversed its letters to become the AT-6 bad boy of the ground attack industry. A successful third round of testing shows that the former student plays well with existing weapons systems including .50-caliber guns, bombs, and rockets. The company hopes its successes on the testing ranges boost chances of winning a U.S. Air Force contract, and continue to attract nations hungry for economical defense systems...

Hawker Beechcraft sheds more jobs

(J. Moore, AOPA Online, 11/8/12) Layoff notices will be sent to about 410 Hawker Beechcraft employees, as the company plans to close facilities in three locations and shut down its business jet production. The Wichita Eagle reported that 60-day notices will be issued Nov. 9 to affected employees in Wichita, Kan., where the company is based, along with Little Rock, Ark., where the last of the Hawker business jets are being completed. Job cuts will also be made in San Antonio and Mesa, Ariz., the Eagle reported, quoting from a letter to employees signed by CEO Steve Miller and Chairman Bill Boisture:“While extremely difficult decisions, these closures and reductions in force will get the company closer to what we envision for our go-forward plan that focuses on turboprop, piston, special mission and trainer/attack aircraft, as well as parts, maintenance, repairs and refurbishment businesses,” the letter said. Hawker Beechcraft filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in May, and recently discussed the failed attempt to negotiate a sale to a Chinese buyer. The collapse of that deal was followed by announcements that the Hawker jet line would be closed, and the company will seek to terminate warranty coverage for many, though not all, of its business jets. The latest round of job cuts push the 2012 total reduction in workers to 1,021 employees in Wichita alone, the Eagle reported.

Damn shame - beautiful aircraft to fly. But, perhaps they should have created a less dirty (aka oil streak producing) aircraft that costs 6.9 million when it's probably worth 3-4.

They wanted to charge the USAF 24 million to produce "-1" publications, aka a checklist. No wonder they didn't get the contract, and hence got the bankruptcy!

Wichita Eagle editorial: Beechcraft forging ahead

(Wichita Eagle, 2/7/13, R. Holman) Recent days have provided welcome relief from the uncertainty over Hawker Beechcraft’s bankruptcy. Now the newly named and refocused "Beechcraft Corp." can concentrate on its future not only in the global market for turboprop, piston and military aircraft, but also in its hometown. Last week the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York gave its final approval to Hawker’s reorganization plan, the last step as the company emerges from Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Soon Bill Boisture will reassume the title of CEO from Robert “Steve” Miller, the turnaround specialist who has spent the past year in the top job. The company has secured $600 million in exit financing and cut costs by having the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp. take over two of its retirement plans. To its credit, and to the Machinists union’s satisfaction, the plan also means the 3,000 current and laid-off workers represented by the union still will have retirement benefits. Those are encouraging outcomes...

A The situation of the Super Tucano being designed elsewhere but contract built in CONUS really is quite similar to the T-6 program. Ask Pilatus who designed the HBC T-6.

Latest update:

Beechcraft unveils new small attack airplane - kwch.com

Weapons System design and procurement is one of the DOD's ugliest stories.

The recent Tanker program shows the incredible manipulations that go on over many years just to purchase a simple off-the -shelf item.

Buying a foreign system is like shooting ourselves in the groin.

I'm confused..:confused:...the AT-6 has been around for a while, am I missing something?