LivingInMEM

AirGunner, why the focus on the V? That's shaping the discussion just a bit.

We're not talking about the V, we're talking about the "how can some stateside RPA driver get this award that's higher than a Bronze Star" cries when they're giving out Bronze Stars to shoe clerks like they are going out of style and AM's mostly for sortie count (on average, not for individual achievement).

A neighborhood has 7 identical homes. You buy yours for $300,000 and the other 6 are sold the next day for $100,000 a piece. Would you still think your house was worth $300,000? Same goes for the EOD guy getting the same exact Bronze Star as the FSS guy and the public affairs NCO standing next to him.

Apples to apples, Distinguished Warfighter medal (no V) compared to Bronze Star (no V). You're assigning extra value for the BS and AM for this discussion when the outcry to the dilution of the medal before today was pretty muted.

PS, just saw your last post, this referred to the previous post. I agree with your last post, change is required as recognition of individual efforts need to be the norm, not group participation.

GunshipGuy

That's how I took it--how you said you intended it...I guess I took a short cut in describing it. With that said, I won't agree that leadership is "at fault" for not generating paperwork to award a crew for not shooting on an authorized target that in the end resulted in the saving of a friendly. I'd say that was leadership's decision, and they made the call they did based on all the factors and their judgment. I saw plenty of times where the decision was not to award a crew for the opposite: saving coalition lives by firing on the enemy. Granted, there were many times where actions were recognized with more than a value of "X" to get to the magic number for an AM. But for the most part, the vast majority of missions where rounds were fired and lives were saved were just counters toward AMs, and a "good mission, guys" from the CC. I didn't fault them for that type of decision either. I could restate the mindset from the "speech" but it probably isn't worth it.

GunshipGuy

So the example to my earlier question about what kind of action can you imagine a UAV crew taking to get awarded the Distinguished Warfare Medal is one where a crew decides to hold fire when directed or cleared by a GFC to fire on a target and thus saves the day by not committing an act of fratricide?

This should be a rarely awarded medal if that's what it takes. Or maybe it will go to a crew that steers their winchester UAV behind a UAV that still has a weapon left, but is underpowered due to an IFE and pushes it to the target allowing the armed drone to drop its weapon on the attacking enemy? Perhaps a crew that takes the panel off of a computer rack in the trailer and does some MacGyver action to bring their disabled UAV back to life only to get back in the fight and save lives? Other than amazing and inspiring action of withholding fire, I'm having a hard time thinking of what could be done to earn this medal. Maybe steer it really really really well and fire very very very accurately....all while under an intense barrage of enemy fire while showing no concern for their own personal safety?

AirGunner

There is method to my madness, allow me to explain..


The main heartache I've heard from people is the placement in the order of precidence, not the separate award. A BSM or AM with a "V" device is the same award as a BSM or AM without the "V" device, practically speaking. However, it's important to note the the "V" device denotes the context in which the medals were awarded. So it doesn't matter how much people kvetch or how much we like it or not, it's authorized for meritorious achievement in "combat."

Which brings me to my next point...

The changing nature of warfare demands that we change our outlook on certain things. Who is to say that an RPA operator that takes out a HVT during a operation didn't contribute to the combat mission. While a award for valor in this instance would be completely inappropriate an award for achievement would be merited.

So, theoretically speaking an RPA operator could be eligible for an achievement based BSM or AM...based upon the participation albiet distant in combat operations.

The warfare they conduct is no less important than any the rest of us have done. Additionally, awards of these "combat" decorations are authroized for "combat" achievement..this hasn't changed since WWII when both awards were instituted. (Hence my inate focus on the "V" device...)

Now, I'm not saying they deserve awards based solely upon valor i.e. MOH, Air Force Cross, or the Silver Star nor do they deserve a Valor device on the BSM or AM....you cannot act with valor in the safety of a box...meaning there is no valor without personal danger. I think we all can agree on that.

So hopefully, I've explained in a nutshell why, IMHO, there is no need for a seperate award...people need to realize the "combat" role RPA/cyber play while non-traditional is no less important than the "traditional" combat roles and they deserve to be recognized for achievement when merited. Achievement based BSM, MSM's, AM's, IMHO should be looked at for being opened up to them.

Shack....

UnderOveur

Yes, we are. Precisely because...


There can be no justification for this. And no amount of hot air, bogus argument, and idiotic rhetoric like "we're not talking about the V" (<----which is total BS) is going to alter the fact that there can be no justification for it. None. Nada. Zilch.

.

LivingInMEM

Under, how do you feel about the admin clerk who never leaves Bagram (or even Al Udied, if that's an eligible location) getting an award that ranks higher than a Purple Heart?

You've got no issue with an NCO who processes awards getting the same medal as those in direct combat action or a higher medal than a purple heart, but this one gets you spun up?

BTW, it's above the Bronze Star. The DoD provides no separation between the w/ V and w/o V, but everyone else does. Of those three airmen on stage in that Charleston link I posted, were their medals equivalent - yes. Were their actions to get the medal equivalent - no. How about if the EOD guy would have been awarded the w/ V device, would their three medals been equivalent? To the DoD - yes, to you - no. We all know that the V is a distinguisher regardless of recognition by the DoD. Since the new medal is ineligible for the V without direct combat action, why the manufactured concern? No casual observer would ever confuse the actions of the wearer of the new medal with the actions of the wearer of a Bronze Star w/ V.

UnderOveur

Sorry. Not interested in your thread-jack. We're not talking about the Purple Heart. We're talking about the new medal Peon Panetta and his merry band of morons just created.

What part of "V for Valor" don't you understand?



No, you don't get to put words into my mouth and then answer as if I said something I didn't. Go pull your BS somewhere else, junior.

LivingInMEM

I understand the V for valor is a device, a device awarded under specific circumstances, but a device nonetheless; it's not a medal. The medal is the Bronze Star, the same medal awarded to admin clerks that never leave the wire. Significant achievement in contributions to warfighting beats processing awards, so I can see why they did what they did; the new medal is higher than the Bronze Star. There is no separate ranking for Bronze Star with V just like there is no distinction between small arms expert and small arms expert with device..

I also understand the V for valor is a device that won't end up on the new medal, so there's no comparison between the two.

As far as the PH question goes, you won't answer because it doesn't fit the manufactured outrage. When the first BS, a medal ranked higher than PH, went to an admin clerk, where was the outcry?

UnderOveur

First of all, the PH honors sacrifice, not bravery. And second, it's up to YOU to prove there was no "outcry" when "the first BS" happened, given that it is YOUR contention there was none.

tomgoodman

FWIW, there was a lot of beefing and snickering about "medal inflation" (and OER inflation, for that matter) as far back as the Viet Nam Era. It was mostly in-house, since there was no Internet then.