FlyJSH

I, sitting in an airconditioned box miles behind the line (it was for the radios, not for me), should rate a medal equal to those who went in harms way???

I, as a SIGINT annalist, was instrumental in giving information to the folks on the front line. When I failed, guys I never knew died. When I gave good information, fewer people died, and more of our people came home.

I DO NOT want a combat medal. I DO NOT want to be recognized. Yes, I did my part. But I NEVER went in harms way.

Give me an ataboy for doing my job well, but I NEVER want to get an award equal to those who were on the front lines.





I took our failures very personally: families of those we gave incorrect information to, many of them died.

I did my best. But for me, my best will never be good enough. There were many times I gave good information, and many of my comrades lived. But there were times I, and my comrades, screwed up (we gave bad information) and people died. We failed. I go home wishing I had done better, and others went home in body bags.

Those who are on the front line should ALWAYS get the awards. They are the folks who risk leaving a family without a patriarch. They are the folks who will never come home.




On Veteran's Day or Memorial Day, I am one of the veterans who seeks no adoration. Yeah, I did my job and I helped, but I never went in harm's way. Give the awards to those who do. They are the ones who deserve it.

iflyhelos

To me this is much to do about nothing. The only medals that really matter are those that have a "V" attached to them. All others are really just pats on the back or are arbitrary. The "V" actually means something. No, I do not have a V device on any of my awards or decorations. Just saw way to many soldiers, sailors and airmen, that is inclusive of officers, get things that cheapened the awards. Look at old pictures of Ike, he had what, two rows of ribbons. I retired an O-5 and looked like I was a general from some banana republic.
A family friend earned three Silver Stars with V device in Vietnam. He told me the awards meant something to him until they started giving SS to battalion and higher commands for doing their jobs. The guy retired an 0-6 so he spoke from a position of authority, both from the perspective of valor and rank.
I dont care if they give this to some people to make themselves feel better about their job. As much as we all hate it, unmanned systems are the way of future warfare for aviation. We will always need boots on the ground and there will always be awards with V devices for those that deserve them.

Winged Wheeler

USMCFLYR

I know the rules are different by service - but indirect fire didn't rate CARSs when I was there last (in the USMC).

RhinoPherret

Yep. Take a good look at officers in Class A’s for example. Anymore, they look like they are a member of some banana republic army with ribbons, medals, and badges affixed to every part of their coat. The uniform becomes more of a billboard promoting the person in it and cheapens (IMHO) the uniform that represents the specific service. I don't remember uniforms carrying so much hardware 38 years ago or so. Guess that dates my time in.

Maybe the more brass and ribbons affixed to the uniform, the better the product has to be, right?

There are ways you earn a medal and there are ways you attain a medal (just a fact).

LivingInMEM

This thread has been enlightening, although it says more about the posters than it does about the subject. How dare those guys think they are as great as I am (For the record, this is a SECDEF announcement; last I checked there are no UAV driver generals in the Pentagon and therefore no "UAV lobby").

All of those medals mentioned thus far are participation medals, nothing more. Though I am not a fan of this medal, though I am certainly not a fan of the relative value, I do note that it is intended to recognize specific cases of extraordinary efforts that go above and beyond and have an impact on the mission (whatever form that may take). That alone places this award in a different category than the revered Air Medal, MSM, etc.

The Air Medal is nothing more than a sortie count medal, so is the AAM. The MSM and AFAM are medals that come once every three years or every PCS, whichever comes first.

I know, "I got that Air Medal because my life was endangered on each of those sorties." Well, so were the lives of your duty pax, where's their medal. Their are soldiers out their with as many sorties/rides in theater as some loadmasters/aircrew, where are their Air Medals? I'll buy your "I was in danger" argument when we start giving the passengers credit and medals for placing their lives in just as much danger.

You know what's funny. In Memphis, on Democrat Road, next to every car that has a TN Air Medal licence plate may be a FedEx pilot sitting in his car who has as many sorties into theater. Do they get an Air Medal as well?

Even the esteemed Bronze Star is no longer all that esteemed in practice.

It's not like you can get that award for running an FSS or being a deputy public affairs NCO: Three Charleston Airmen awarded Bronze Star by CJCS

Of course, you couldn't get that award for showing accountability for equipment: 401st AFSB senior NCOIC receives Bronze Star Medal | Article | The United States Army

In no way could you get that award for processing medals for others: Texas Reservist awarded Bronze Star | Fort Bliss Monitor Of note, the sentence "Although his fight was not outside the wire, his performance has been outstanding. "

Before you go on and on about how those UAV operators aren't there, you do realize the majority of them rotate into theater to do LRE ops at some point, don't you. So, for the ones who are in theater, can they have that Bronze Star? How about the ones that fly back and forth between operating locations, can they count their sorties/rides for an Air Medal?

There is certainly enough there for a real discussion on the need for the medal, the value of the medal, etc. But I think this particular discussion should have been titled "how can they think they are as great and brave as me?" Or maybe, "I can't believe they are going to cheapen the value of my esteemed XXX medal that I actually earned."

For the record, I'll restate that I am not a fan of the medal. That being said......if someone receives this award for the reason intended, for being the difference between success/failure, for being the difference between a dead and a live soldier (a difference that is articulate-able, not the generic "if I fail people die"), then I will respect that person and that award much more than I will the guy wearing the sortie count Air Medal.

rickair7777

IMO the bronze star is already diluted...if REMFs can get one for superlative admin then LRE staff could to.

I don't have a problem with a UAV medal, just put in the appropriate place say with the navy CAR. Better yet just give them a warfare badge...used to be badges were for dangerous stuff (airborne, pilot, submarine etc) but now there's so many of those things that nobody would ever know the difference.

The air medal (I don't have one) does generally involve flying sorties in a hostile environment. The threat level may vary and was certainly higher in previous wars. But at least your own sweet can is hanging out to dry.

The air medal itself ranks a little higher than I personally think it should, and that is a historical legacy going back to when flying was REALLY dangerous (WW-II). In theory you can get on for non-combat flying but I think current policy would make that a rare or non-existent possibility.

LivingInMEM

The Air Medal is nothing more than number of sorties across the line, no specific actions or accomplishments are required. Again, if that in itself is dangerous enough to warrant a medal, why not award the same medal to the passengers as well?

By the way, this isn't a UAV medal, it's for all direct support to combat ops. Notionally, I am not opposed to that. For example, assuming the Zero Dark Thirty movie is accurate as a reference, would you say that the actions of that female analyst were both over and above and had a very notable direct impact on combat operations? Did she have a larger impact than the guy who flew office furniture and computers to Bagram 10 times and got an Air Medal for it? My answer is yes and yes; that analyst was irreplaceable while that aircrew member could have been replaced with any other aircrew member. So, the notion of this medal is not far off; of course, execution is everything.

GunshipGuy

I know of individuals who received AMs for single mission events that stood out enough on their own that it was deemed worthy of an AM (e.g. killing bad guys and saving friendlies while taking fire). I've seen MSMs given out for leadership of combat troops over a period of many months. Personally, I thought that was a better choice than a BSM, as it didn't further diminish the BSM in such cases. So, no, they aren't all "participation medals, nothing more." And, no, sorry, but we weren't carrying passengers.


If a FedEx pilot runs into a burning building and saves a baby he doesn't get the medal a firefighter would get from his organization. What's your point? Get rid of awards that recognize an organization's performers because people outside the organization aren't getting them as well? Maybe the FedEx pilot can give the C-17 loadmaster the pay he got for his trip and the loadmaster will give him one of his AMs.

Welcome to the party. That's exactly the point that's being made here. And now with this UAV medal you don't even have to spend a night away from home to get a combat medal.


Yes, I think most realize that UAV operators rotate into theater for LRE ops. But with this medal one doesn't even have to do that, do they? "Rotate into theater, and lose the chance at getting my Distinguished Warfare Medal? Are you nuts--heck, no, man!" And yes, they're eligible for their BSM or AM when in a combat area already, aren't they? Do you hear any complaints about that? No, the points being made are just the same as you're making--the BSM is handed out entirely too much, thus diminishing its value. This new medal, most notably due to the value it's being given, further diminishes the BSM, and sets itself up for mocking. BTW, I don't have a BSM.

Again, you don't seem to realize that Air Medals are not always awarded for just sortie count. I've read AARs from ground teams citing aircraft personnel and stating they would not be alive had it not been for the crew's actions that saved their lives.

I think one can have a valid opinion about what this medal does to cheapen others like the BSM and AM without a hidden agenda of "it cheapens mine."

GunshipGuy

Well, to take your example to a more plausible situation (she was in the CIA and I don't think the USAF goes around seeking out CIA analysts to award their medals to). But say she was working intel in the USAF. And let's further assume she was not in a combat area where the CIA agent was. Let's just say she was in the U.S. the entire time and not in harm's way and did an incredible, outstanding job--one that stood out, and would be hard to replicate by her peers. I'd say she was a good candidate for the Legion of Merit--but more if she were actually in harm's way.