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Jumping ship with no parachute?

Old 07-01-2013, 11:52 PM
  #1  
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Default Jumping ship with no parachute?

Hi all. Long time lurker, first time poster. In any case, I'm active Navy with some tough decisions approaching quickly. I've got another year and half on my current set of shore flying orders until I have to play poker with the detailer and see what plans fate has for me.

I'm in the 8 year JO winging generation that has recently started to hit the year group cycles. In the past, everyone was 7 years and the math was simple: Do the sea and shore tour...your time was basically up. At that point you made the choice to go disassociated and stay in...or thank the Navy for their time and be on your way. Now with the 8 year guys like me...we will be on the hook for another 1.5 years and have no choice but to do some kind of tour...and most likely one that doesn't involve flying.

Although I can dream for flying orders again (C-12's Bahrain sounds lovely) or get picked up for FTS (assuming there is a quota for it), everything would be fine. But realistically, I'm looking at the boat or an IA/GSA.

I'd like the IA/GSA route...but ironically those are harder to come by now with the downsizing over in the desert. In fact, I know several individuals that were slated and ended up getting canceled...and are now in holding purgatory.

To get to my point, I've really enjoyed my time in the Navy. But I'm leaning towards getting out and hitting the airlines. Of course this will involve a lot of whatif's...but I'm assuming that I will be out of the cockpit a minimum of one year and change when I'm eligible to apply. Assuming monthly averages until I PCS, I should have roughly 2000 hours multi TT and 1200 Multi PIC. ATP is already complete and will have CFI/CFII done this year, as well as having types in the 707, 737, C-26, BE-300/MU-400. I'll work on the 1st class med later.

Anyone else looking at the same kind of situation? It seems like most here seem to be collecting that nice retirement check to keep paying the mortgage

Obviously if I make the jump...I wouldn't have that luxury. Of course I've weighed all the pros and cons...and it could be a gamble either way. Staying in the safe route as I would be half way there...although career progression is anyone's guess. Yet I'd hate to miss out on the next hiring wave, if and when that indeed ever comes to pass. It could make all the difference.

I think the hardest part is the unknown variables of how I could maintain currency and hopefully not have to feed a small family with ramen while doing so. I'm learning more about the FTS/SELRES/ANG side, but I definitely don't consider myself an expert on the subject. Maybe I need to get smart real quick Anyone have any experience or stories with guys looking at Regionals vs Bumming?

For what it's worth, my old man does fly for FedEX and will do so for another +/- 4 years. Obviously that helps with the networking aspect for one company...but the good ol boy network is a thing of the past for better or worse. However, if I wanted the best opportunity to fly for one of the industry leaders...earlier would be better than later to try and shoot for the stars.

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble. Just looking for whatever input may be out there. I'm going to blink and it'll be decision time before I know it.
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Old 07-02-2013, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Cookenbauer View Post
Anyway, I'm starting to ramble.
Brevity...
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Old 07-02-2013, 06:25 AM
  #3  
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C,
Well time to fish or cut bait. assume you are a VQ guy who did an off the beaten track flying shore tour, so if you go to Sea then you have to come back and do a DH tour to get current, maybe 4-5 years total. Out at 13-14 is not out of the question and no a bad idea in the right environment.

Lots of permutations of what to do. Will say that QOL is about to go WAY down for you in the Nav. So here is an idea. Apply for FTS NOW! If you get it you have the option to stay in the Navy's greatest deal, VR. You also have an easy slide over to the icing on the VR cake, Selres VR!

Push the detailer for C-12 somewhere. Career suicide but if you are determined to go fly on the outside, (your dad being at Fedex is HUGE; the good old boy system is not as strong but you didn't get interviewed there so far for 95% of folks without at least knowing somebody and same at SWA and UAL) go for it. The IA is such a crapshoot right now in the drawdown not worth it unless detailer throws you a bone in the negotiation, so negotiate hard for the C-12 job if FTS doesn't happen, and if the detailer won't do it turn down the crappy stuff he gives you first. He is a used car dealer and has to move the lemons off the lot. Push him a bit until he gives you another choice. That is gonna be as good as it gets. In no way do you share your airline vision with that forked tongued devil. Play the "not sure i will get a DH slot due to non traditional shore duty" card and then let him talk about your DH chances. Maybe he says your right and gives you C-12s. Maybe he tries to sell you boat and DH tour. Worse case you get underway on nuclear power and then come back and do FRS then bail. The jobs will be there. Just have a plan and put it in action now. Good luck.
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Old 07-02-2013, 07:57 AM
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Go ahead and jump. The hiring faucet is about to turn to the wide open position. (I expect DAL will announce hiring in 3 weeks for Oct interviews.) Getting on the front side of the coming hiring boom will be huge in terms of career earnings and progression. Clean record, reasonable time, USN trained heavy guy - you will be very attractive to some major. If you have a commendation letter from Irish, you'll be in anywhere. Good luck.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:25 AM
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Tough call man. There are flying orders out there for a guy like you, but the detailer will hold those close to the chest. If it were me, I'd roll the dice and turn down any orders that don't involve flying. You'll either:

1.) land a set and life will be good through the end or

2.) fall into the 6 month window and the details will slap you with whatever he wants, in which case you wouldn't have been flying anyway.

There are no more flying IA/GSA's unless you count BAMS. I can put you in touch with those guys if you want (it sounds like a solid gig for not flying). The upside is you could fly civil on the side.

In any case go get your CFI, if you wind up not getting flying orders and can at least stay INCONUS you may be able to instruct on the side/weekends to at least keep yourself current.
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Old 07-02-2013, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Dragon7 View Post
C,
Well time to fish or cut bait. assume you are a VQ guy who did an off the beaten track flying shore tour, so if you go to Sea then you have to come back and do a DH tour to get current, maybe 4-5 years total. Out at 13-14 is not out of the question and no a bad idea in the right environment.

Lots of permutations of what to do. Will say that QOL is about to go WAY down for you in the Nav. So here is an idea. Apply for FTS NOW! If you get it you have the option to stay in the Navy's greatest deal, VR. You also have an easy slide over to the icing on the VR cake, Selres VR!

Push the detailer for C-12 somewhere. Career suicide but if you are determined to go fly on the outside, (your dad being at Fedex is HUGE; the good old boy system is not as strong but you didn't get interviewed there so far for 95% of folks without at least knowing somebody and same at SWA and UAL) go for it. The IA is such a crapshoot right now in the drawdown not worth it unless detailer throws you a bone in the negotiation, so negotiate hard for the C-12 job if FTS doesn't happen, and if the detailer won't do it turn down the crappy stuff he gives you first. He is a used car dealer and has to move the lemons off the lot. Push him a bit until he gives you another choice. That is gonna be as good as it gets. In no way do you share your airline vision with that forked tongued devil. Play the "not sure i will get a DH slot due to non traditional shore duty" card and then let him talk about your DH chances. Maybe he says your right and gives you C-12s. Maybe he tries to sell you boat and DH tour. Worse case you get underway on nuclear power and then come back and do FRS then bail. The jobs will be there. Just have a plan and put it in action now. Good luck.
You pretty much hit what I'm thinking spot on. My ideal plan is to apply for FTS when eligible...and still trying to negotiate the slim possibility of C-12 flying orders. I mentioned Bahrain because my timing would match up beautifully so I'm hawking those. Of course I'd take anything in the King Air...but places like Japan and Gitmo are considered shore tours, so it would be purely up to detailer discretion.

I did find a lovely little tidbit in the MILSPERSMAN 1920-200 instruction involving resigning your commission. Apparently a buddy of mine faced the same situation that I will come to face. He was pressured for the boat, and made the argument that he wasn't competitive, off the beaten path, and was FTS or bust. According to the instruction...if you submit a LOI to resign your commission 6 months prior to your PRD...the next set of orders cannot legally extend you past your MSR. So in other words, the detailer trying to sell 24+ boat orders when you only owe 16-18 months isn't going to fly unless he finds a way to maliciously modify shorter boat orders, which to my knowledge has zero precedent. In any case, he went through as promised and submited his LOI. Magically the situation went from little to no chance to getting FTS...to actually being eligible. He did get picked up in the end. And common sense tells me that the detailer office tried to scramble and find something and just let him go as a result.

Either way, if I can manage my way into a VR community, I'll be pretty happy. I suppose it's just a matter of finding the best way in getting there.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback already.
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:01 AM
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C,

Don't discount VT FTS. IMO, VT-31/35 are as good or better than VR....more flight time and instant ME PIC. Worked for me

Also, the CO of NSA Bahrain is an ex-VQ-4 CO. I don't know if he has any say on the C-12 det out there but it couldn't hurt if he knows you or knows someone who knows you...just sayin'.
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:40 AM
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I thought the only way to get on with Fedex and the few majors hiring is to know someone?
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyBoyd View Post
C,

Don't discount VT FTS. IMO, VT-31/35 are as good or better than VR....more flight time and instant ME PIC. Worked for me

Also, the CO of NSA Bahrain is an ex-VQ-4 CO. I don't know if he has any say on the C-12 det out there but it couldn't hurt if he knows you or knows someone who knows you...just sayin'.

Absolutely. I'd take VT-31/35 in a heartbeat on the FTS or SELRES side
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Old 07-02-2013, 12:22 PM
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Cookenbauer,

I just did the same thing that you are contemplating. I was active duty navy (VP) and dropped my letter to get out. I would absolutely recommend going Fts or selres if you are getting out. I like your thinking on VT and/or VR spots, but I would warn you that those are two places where the majority of guys getting out are trying to go. That being the case they can be more selective of who they choose. Make sure you check out other options. I ended up going VP reserves and have thus far been very happy. They guaranteed a spot prior to my separation due to being undermanned, they have been extremely flexible with my drilling time, and they were fine with me commuting. I also found that it is generally easier to get a selres billet somewhere and apply to be FTS (no year group issues or working with getting released by your community) than to go straight from AD to FTS (though things could have changed this last year). My point is to make sure you investigate ALL of your options not just the ones that sound good! Please PM me if you have any other questions, I would be happy to help if I can! Good luck!
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