Is the Air Force really short of pilots?
05-07-2016, 11:30 AM
#32
Flyin' the Line
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by Albief15
If not--I think a pragmatic person "betting their wings" might opt for a T-1, knowing flying KC-10s C-17s. etc is pretty damn cool work and will make them a great career outside the military one day if they choose. If the only cost to trying, and not completing T-38s was a delay as you got dusted off and got another shot at the T-1, then I think a lot of folks on the fence might go for it...
FWIW...we sort of did this with UPT...everyone got through T-38s but not everyone flew fighters down the road. The problem was that jet probably eliminated some that would have been good other places. The problem with SUPT is if we don't give folks a chance to go for it, they'll make conservative career ORM decisions and take a less risky path.
We can all thump our chest on this issue, but the reality is those wings are worth millions and millions of dollars. Even a 23 year old can do some math. For every kid that grew up wanting to be Boyington or Gabreski, there are a lot of folks who also understand there is a great career waiting beyond the fence. FWIW...I racked over 2000 hours in the F-15, but at 23 given that choice I probably would have gone to heavies...only because I thought I wanted to be a figher pilot, but I KNEW I wanted to fly for a living...
FWIW...we sort of did this with UPT...everyone got through T-38s but not everyone flew fighters down the road. The problem was that jet probably eliminated some that would have been good other places. The problem with SUPT is if we don't give folks a chance to go for it, they'll make conservative career ORM decisions and take a less risky path.
We can all thump our chest on this issue, but the reality is those wings are worth millions and millions of dollars. Even a 23 year old can do some math. For every kid that grew up wanting to be Boyington or Gabreski, there are a lot of folks who also understand there is a great career waiting beyond the fence. FWIW...I racked over 2000 hours in the F-15, but at 23 given that choice I probably would have gone to heavies...only because I thought I wanted to be a figher pilot, but I KNEW I wanted to fly for a living...
I think the T-38 drops should have been much better. Sure, drop the occasional UAV or heavy (those slots need to be filled, too), but if you don't have better than a 15% chance of finishing T-38s and flying a fighter then not many will take that chance. I'd rather finish T-1s with the odds that I'll end up in a good heavy than finish T-38s with the odds that I'll end up in a Conex looking at a screen.
05-08-2016, 08:19 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Posts: 900
Originally Posted by Albief15
Man...absolutely no disrespect to the warriors flying heavies all over the world...
Is the T-38 elimination still removal from UPT? I have to believe there are some young men and women who might discover they weren't meant to fly single seat that still would be awesome pilots in a multi crew jet. It doens't mean they suck, or are bad pilots, just that perhaps the learning curve at that point got a tad below the desired slope. So what? If they can serve, safely and effectively, then roll them into something else.
If this is what they are doing now, then I'll Rosanana Dana "Never Mind" right here....
If not--I think a pragmatic person "betting their wings" might opt for a T-1, knowing flying KC-10s C-17s. etc is pretty damn cool work and will make them a great career outside the military one day if they choose. If the only cost to trying, and not completing T-38s was a delay as you got dusted off and got another shot at the T-1, then I think a lot of folks on the fence might go for it...
FWIW...we sort of did this with UPT...everyone got through T-38s but not everyone flew fighters down the road. The problem was that jet probably eliminated some that would have been good other places. The problem with SUPT is if we don't give folks a chance to go for it, they'll make conservative career ORM decisions and take a less risky path.
We can all thump our chest on this issue, but the reality is those wings are worth millions and millions of dollars. Even a 23 year old can do some math. For every kid that grew up wanting to be Boyington or Gabreski, there are a lot of folks who also understand there is a great career waiting beyond the fence. FWIW...I racked over 2000 hours in the F-15, but at 23 given that choice I probably would have gone to heavies...only because I thought I wanted to be a figher pilot, but I KNEW I wanted to fly for a living...
Is the T-38 elimination still removal from UPT? I have to believe there are some young men and women who might discover they weren't meant to fly single seat that still would be awesome pilots in a multi crew jet. It doens't mean they suck, or are bad pilots, just that perhaps the learning curve at that point got a tad below the desired slope. So what? If they can serve, safely and effectively, then roll them into something else.
If this is what they are doing now, then I'll Rosanana Dana "Never Mind" right here....
If not--I think a pragmatic person "betting their wings" might opt for a T-1, knowing flying KC-10s C-17s. etc is pretty damn cool work and will make them a great career outside the military one day if they choose. If the only cost to trying, and not completing T-38s was a delay as you got dusted off and got another shot at the T-1, then I think a lot of folks on the fence might go for it...
FWIW...we sort of did this with UPT...everyone got through T-38s but not everyone flew fighters down the road. The problem was that jet probably eliminated some that would have been good other places. The problem with SUPT is if we don't give folks a chance to go for it, they'll make conservative career ORM decisions and take a less risky path.
We can all thump our chest on this issue, but the reality is those wings are worth millions and millions of dollars. Even a 23 year old can do some math. For every kid that grew up wanting to be Boyington or Gabreski, there are a lot of folks who also understand there is a great career waiting beyond the fence. FWIW...I racked over 2000 hours in the F-15, but at 23 given that choice I probably would have gone to heavies...only because I thought I wanted to be a figher pilot, but I KNEW I wanted to fly for a living...
05-08-2016, 08:49 AM
#34
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,293
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
This is not a good idea. Flight screening is supposed to be just that. Screening potential UPT candidates for aptitude prior to more demanding training. Letting weaklings into UPT isn't going to help the USAF or the candidate.
If they can't figure out a basic VFR single engine recip in the time allotted, they're probably not going to do any better once they get into more demanding training scenarios in UPT.
Unless they've changed the program significantly, all we're talking about is basics. T/O and landing, simple air work and solo.
The solution to a USAF pilot shortage doesn't lie in making the holes in the filter larger during training. It's about the leadership, culture and ops tempo that's driving away the quality pilots that made it through the program.
If they can't figure out a basic VFR single engine recip in the time allotted, they're probably not going to do any better once they get into more demanding training scenarios in UPT.
Unless they've changed the program significantly, all we're talking about is basics. T/O and landing, simple air work and solo.
The solution to a USAF pilot shortage doesn't lie in making the holes in the filter larger during training. It's about the leadership, culture and ops tempo that's driving away the quality pilots that made it through the program.
The old school system hit all the candidates in the face right out of the gate, and often times lack of knowledge and proper preparation did in folks who could have thrived. Example, fleet sailor screens for specwar, but timing dictates that he arrives at training directly from a ship near the end of a lengthy deployment...even a great athlete's body could not handle the rapid ramp-up from shipboard duty to buds or dive school.
Solution was to mentor candidates and establish a prep program...first "distance learning" and then a "resident" program to ensure that everyone entered with the same baseline knowledge, expectations, and fitness.
05-08-2016, 01:31 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: 737 right
Posts: 755
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
This is not a good idea. Flight screening is supposed to be just that. Screening potential UPT candidates for aptitude prior to more demanding training. Letting weaklings into UPT isn't going to help the USAF or the candidate.
If they can't figure out a basic VFR single engine recip in the time allotted, they're probably not going to do any better once they get into more demanding training scenarios in UPT.
Unless they've changed the program significantly, all we're talking about is basics. T/O and landing, simple air work and solo.
The solution to a USAF pilot shortage doesn't lie in making the holes in the filter larger during training. It's about the leadership, culture and ops tempo that's driving away the quality pilots that made it through the program.
If they can't figure out a basic VFR single engine recip in the time allotted, they're probably not going to do any better once they get into more demanding training scenarios in UPT.
Unless they've changed the program significantly, all we're talking about is basics. T/O and landing, simple air work and solo.
The solution to a USAF pilot shortage doesn't lie in making the holes in the filter larger during training. It's about the leadership, culture and ops tempo that's driving away the quality pilots that made it through the program.
Fast forward to UPT and I saw many students with airsick issues who were eventually able to kick the problem and had plenty of time to learn and catch on. Some even went on to be my best students.
05-08-2016, 01:57 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Posts: 900
Originally Posted by Albief15
Man...absolutely no disrespect to the warriors flying heavies all over the world..
I ate, slept and pooped being a fighter pilot going into UPT. 3/4's of the way through Phase II after doing a lot of homework and interviewing IP's from all different airframes, I changed my mind. I graduated in a position to probably get anything I wanted and I felt somewhat pressured by the Flt/Cc to pick fighters, but at that point I had gotten over the thrill of aero and pulling g's as well as wearing a helmet/mask giving me a perma-mark on my nose. It got old and I wanted to "see the world", so I chose heavy track. I'd love to take the keys to a fighter for a few hours, but when it comes to long career I felt heavies was better for me.
05-08-2016, 04:21 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,988
Originally Posted by TankerDriver
....and pulling g's as well as wearing a helmet/mask giving me a perma-mark on my nose.
I do enjoy seeing the world now and I understand why you chose that path. I will say that (aside from the actual flying), a cold beer in the squadron bar with mask marks still on my face was hard to beat.
05-08-2016, 06:20 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Posts: 900
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
Sounds like you found the right spot. If we all wanted the same thing, there would be a lot of miserable pilots in the world.
I do enjoy seeing the world now and I understand why you chose that path. I will say that (aside from the actual flying), a cold beer in the squadron bar with mask marks still on my face was hard to beat.
I do enjoy seeing the world now and I understand why you chose that path. I will say that (aside from the actual flying), a cold beer in the squadron bar with mask marks still on my face was hard to beat.
I also do enjoy being able to get up and take a leak on a long flight across the pond.
05-08-2016, 06:41 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,988
Originally Posted by TankerDriver
I also do enjoy being able to get up and take a leak on a long flight across the pond.
05-08-2016, 07:08 PM
#40
Get me outta here...
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: Boeing right seat
Posts: 1,541
Fly6584 & Adler:
IFS became IFT about 18 months ago. The 'S' for Screening changed to 'T' for Training. The IP cadre was directed to give more instruction and see if trainees could make the hurdle.
I had a relative go through a year ago, and it sounded like everyone got a pretty fair shake.
IFS became IFT about 18 months ago. The 'S' for Screening changed to 'T' for Training. The IP cadre was directed to give more instruction and see if trainees could make the hurdle.
I had a relative go through a year ago, and it sounded like everyone got a pretty fair shake.
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