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Local357 EXCO response to the RPC(FAPA!!)

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Local357 EXCO response to the RPC(FAPA!!)

Old 06-05-2011, 05:35 PM
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Default Local357 EXCO response to the RPC(FAPA!!)

Fellow RAH Pilots,

I have been asked about my response to this RPC campaign. Many of you have seen our initial response, I figured I should break it down in an effort to have an informed discussion. I had the RPC pitch forwarded to me, I will break it down and respond below:
RPC wrote:The Republic Pilots Council (RPC) is an umbrella joint Council that would be certified by the NMB as the designated bargaining representative for all Republic Airways Holdings pilots under the Single Transportation System if it prevails in the coming election. The RPC members will initially consist of
equal representation from the current FAPA and Local 357 leadership.
Does the RPC have bylaws? Is this in writing? How do we all know there will be equal representation? If the RPC is certified on June 27th, what happens on June 28th? Is there a President? Who is in charge of this thing? Who will put together the group? Clearly I have a lot of questions…
RPC wrote:Underneath the RPC, the pilots flying on the Republic, Shuttle and Chautauqua certificates under the Chautauqua CBA would be
represented by one organization designated by the RPC specific to their needs and of their choosing (Local 357, or an independent); and the pilots flying on the Frontier certificate under the FAPA CBA would be represented by FAPA, as designated by the RPC.
The “Native RAH Pilots” would be represented by one organization designated by the RPC? We are told the RPC will be equal representation and they will designate the organization? They do say the native RAH pilots can choose to keep Local 357. Unfortunately, under the law, if RPC were to be certified as the bargaining representative, the Teamsters would no longer have any say. I suppose we could adopt the name Local 357 as an independent union, but we would not remain a part of Teamsters. They do state the Frontier pilots would still be represented by FAPA. Funny how this coalition knows who will represent the Frontier pilots…who is driving this ship?
RPC wrote:Local 357 leadership claims that we all need to work together, but even they have stated that there are different priorities in representation and bargaining between the branded operation and fee-for-departure operation. The greatest chasm between the groups right now is
obviously the SLI. If the RPC is elected, FAPA will take the first step forward in unity by supporting the joint members of the RPC in negotiating successful implementation of the SLI.
I’m unsure of how the RPC will negotiate implementation of the SLI. The fact is the SLI will be implemented 60 days after the representative body is certified by the NMB, per the Eischen award. How is it that FAPA will take the first step toward unity, but only if RPC is elected? Is FAPA saying they will not support unity if RPC is not elected?

RPC wrote:Why a Joint Council?

RPC = Republic Pilots representing Republic Pilots. This structure gives both groups what they desire: a common organizational structure for unity and common efforts, as well as a structure that protects the unique priorities and interests of both groups.

The pilots of Frontier Airlines have been very happy with their representation by FAPA. That is who they chose for their representation for the past 13 years and they are very upset about the possibility of
another organization stripping this from them. Recent polling showed that not one Frontier pilot, of the hundreds asked, supported IBT as their bargaining representative. Forcing IBT representation on the
Frontier pilots through the greater number of Republic pilots will create animosity and division – NOT a unified front for RAH pilots’ interests.
This is not Republic Pilots represented by Republic Pilots, this is FAPA saying they hate IBT. The IBT has never backed the idea of forcing ourselves on them. We have actually offered them a structure that would keep their leadership involved, but they told us, “that won’t work for us.”

We offered them a Transitional Executive Council (TEC) who would administer their contract. We told them we have intentionally delayed our E-Board elections so they would be eligible to run. Regardless of what you may hear, they are eligible to run per our bylaws, there is a carve out for merging members; we made sure of it for this reason.
RPC wrote:On the other hand, we appreciate that there is significant support for the new Local 357 EXCO and that the pilots of Republic/Shuttle America/Chautauqua may be very happy to continue being represented by
those EXCO members and even the IBT. The Republic pilots should therefore be free to maintain their representation as well, rather than have it imposed on them by another group.

This Joint Council will serve the interests of ALL the pilots at Republic Air Holdings.
Local 357 has support of the pilot group and we look forward to bring both groups together as one. We don’t want to be separate, but equal; we want to be UNIFIED as one group.
RPC wrote:How will it work?

The RPC will provide a common, unified platform to ensure cooperative efforts between all the pilots at RAH. The RPC will initially consist of equal representation from the current FAPA and Local 357 leadership. Under the RPC, a Bargaining Agent will be designated for Frontier pilots and Republic pilots (e.g. FAPA and Local 357 respectively). Each Bargaining Agent under the RPC will collect and manage its own dues at the rate to be determined by its respective members. The RPC will oversee the objectives of
each group, coordinate communication and cooperation between committees, and ensure all RAH pilots’ interests and actions remained aligned and consistent.
So the RPC will have equal representation, initially? What happens after “initially?” Where is it in writing that we will have equal representation, other than a web board post? Dues will be separate, doesn’t sound like unification to me…
RPC wrote:The RPC will make all efforts to:

• Implement the Eischen Award
• Prevent continuous litigation regarding SLI implementation or Duty of Fair representation issues
• Develop joint provisions to prevent “whipsaw” of the two groups by RAH management
• Develop a common basis to address issues such as scope and struck work to allow the pilots of each
group to respect the legitimate rights of the other
• Coordinate the efforts of each organization’s committees for the betterment of the entire pilot group.
All efforts to?

Implement the Eischen Award – Binding arbitration says it will be implemented 60 days after the representative body is determined (approximately August 26). What does the RPC “making an effort” have to do with this?

Prevent litigation – So, a threat? If we don’t vote for RPC they will continue to litigate? Duty of Fair representation issues, not sure what that means.

Develop provisions to prevent whipsaw? That’s called one union, joint CBA. You can’t prevent a whipsaw with two bargaining agents. It’s called the fundamental theory of a union.

Common basis for scope and struck work? Simple…IBT 357 wants scope for everything, FAPA (RPC) wants to outsource below 120,000 lbs. IBT 357 wants to be the envy of the industry while FAPA (RPC) wants to follow in the footsteps and make the same mistakes as the legacy airlines. Struck work should not be a question; we should be one union, one list, one voice. Why do they care about struck work unless they are thinking about crossing a picket line?

Coordinate efforts of committees? This is something I have been accused of. I was told I was divisive by telling our committees they could work together. I have supported this idea from day one, we don’t need RPC to make this a reality, we just need cooperation.
RPC wrote:How does the RPC benefit the Republic Pilots?

Rather than a national organization with minimal airline experience and widely varying priorities and expenses, the Republic Pilots can benefit from a unique opportunity to be represented by an independent organization of their choosing that is specifically designed for pilots. However, if they want
to keep IBT Local 357 as their Bargaining Agent, they are free to do so.
The RPC structure also gives the Republic Pilots an opportunity to address their unique needs, CBA negotiations, and economic issues cooperatively with the support and experience of FAPA and the Frontier pilots. The Chautauqua CBA has been amendable without resolution for too long and the RPC will work aggressively to move that process forward.
The national organization has more airline experience than they know. They say we can be represented by the experience of FAPA. This is the organization currently negotiating concessions with RAH. They have given up the snapback and are working on reducing work rules. IBT 357 is pushing forward with mediation while FAPA is negotiating concessions. Seems like the RPC would not be much of a benefit to the native RAH group.
RPC wrote:The RPC would allow FAPA and Republic representatives to work productively together. The FAPA representatives are experienced pilot representatives who have successfully negotiated for pilots. FAPA has developed one of the best quality of life contracts in the industry with a highly flexible open time system, valuable vacation and sick accrual and use provisions, and a rewarding incentive compensation structure. Over the past 4 years, FAPA has signed 65 Letters of Agreement to improve and clarify the contract, including 15 LOA’s in the past year alone (the most recent include improved flexibility in adding open time, more pay for reserves with long duty periods and an improved relief line bidding process). This experience in bargaining for scheduling rules, benefits, compensation, resolving grievances, and all the other issues related to quality of life for a professional pilot is an invaluable asset
that will not likely be available under a forced relationship.
So FAPA is experienced with former Frontier management? They do have good work rules; I’ll give them that. I’m unsure how this would relate to the “joint council” They want separate bargaining agents, but claim they have experience. Which one is it, are we one, or separate? I think we are doing just fine with our negotiations. Pretty sure we don’t need FAPA help on our contract while they are busy negotiating concessions.
RPC wrote:Will IBT Local 357 be designated as the Bargaining Agent for the Republic Pilots?

If the Republic pilots want it to be, it will. If the RPC wins the election by the combined pilot group, the IBT will no longer be the NMB recognized Bargaining Representative for the Republic pilots. However, if the Republic pilots choose to maintain IBT Local 357 as their Bargaining Agent, they are free to choose to do so.

If the Republic Pilots believe an organization other than Local 357 would better represent their interests, the FAPA representatives on the RPC will support that decision and FAPA will commit resources and knowledge to assist in doing so. If the Republic Pilots decide they want to form an independent organization, they could realize between $400,000 and $500,000 in additional dues revenues for their efforts that is currently disappearing into the IBT bank account in Washington DC with minimal return.

This would likely eliminate the need for the assessment being paid by the current IBT membership that is likely to continue for some time. Until the Republic pilots determine their Bargaining Agent, the current EXCO will remain in place on the RPC as experienced and informed leaders.
They are correct when they say if RPC is elected the IBT will no longer be recognized as the bargaining representative. This means the Teamsters will be gone, we will be on our own. They want to talk about money? They fail to mention the salaries the FAPA Board of Directors receives. Take a look at the LM2’s. They call Local 357 out for spending money, they fail to mention the $42,000 per year in salary givrn to the president of FAPA, on top of flight loss pay. They fail to mention the rest of the salaries paid to their Board of Directors, over $200,000 per year. Don’t forget, that’s on top of flight loss pay. The IBT pilots only get paid flight loss pay. It’s not about additional money to the IBT representatives, it’s about representing our group.
RPC wrote:Will the NMB recognize the RPC?

Yes. This is a legal entity that will be recognized by the NMB as the elected Bargaining Representative. IBT will likely tell the membership that is not the case, but that is misleading and untrue – there are currently structures similar to this in existence in the IBT. (See IBT/HERE Employee Representatives' Council at Gate Gourmet; or the IBT/CWA Association at USAirways.)

Uniting behind this structure is in the best interests of all the pilots at Republic.
The difference is the mentioned alliances were agreed to by all parties and certified before they were voted on. Perhaps the RPC (FAPA) lawyers are telling a different story than our lawyers. I tend to believe ours, as they have been correct throughout this entire process; while the FAPA lawyers have been flailing. Filing lawsuits and running up the bill might feel good to their group, but it doesn’t mean they are right.
RPC wrote:Why not IBT for everyone?

Frankly, there is absolutely no support among the Frontier pilots for the IBT or to be absorbed into Local 357. There is probably a similar feeling among many of the Republic Pilots with respect to FAPA. In order to prevent a massively antagonistic chasm from being formed, we believe each group can have the benefits of having their unique interests addressed by their chosen Bargaining Agent under the guidance and cooperation of the RPC.
While we respect the Republic pilots’ option to send a portion of dues to IBT national, the Frontier pilots prefer not to send money to a national organization for minimal return. FAPA has been very successful
keeping all dues in-house for direct representation, and seeking outside counsel and consultants as necessary. IBT, while a large labor organization, generally represents non-pilot workers with limited focus on pilots and the airline industry. While all employees deserve representation, the parent organization should have knowledge, expertise, and focus on the industry in which it is representing. The International Brotherhood of Teamsters represents more than 1,400,000 workers. The IBT Airline Division claims to represent 75,000 workers. Of those, only 6,621 are pilots. Less than one half of one percent of all IBT members are pilots.

The RPC membership would be 100% pilots from Republic Air Holdings with combined annual revenues of approximately $3,000,000. If IBT were to represent all the pilots at Republic they would siphon off approximately $650,000 of the dues money for the national organization.
It’s called a union. The Teamsters can bring the heat when need be. Why did the NMB finally issue the award, while they wanted to hold out? Teamsters. If it comes to a strike, who has support? Teamsters. Who has a voice on the hill? Teamsters.

How much does the FAPA board make in salary? How much does the IBT Executive Board get paid?

There is no support from the Frontier Pilots for IBT because they don’t know what we offered as a transitional agreement. It has been explained to FAPA leadership, have they communicated our plans?
RPC wrote:Why not FAPA for everyone?

The Republic pilots have legitimate concerns about being represented effectively with FAPA. As we have indicated to the FAPA members and the Local 357 leadership, the FAPA structure is not appropriate to represent the entire group. Contrary to some representations, this is not an issue of FAPA not wanting to represent or work with/for the Republic pilots, it is a problem in that FAPA is not constructed to be able to logistically or financially support such a large group with so many domiciles. The structure of the RPC will be more effective in representing the entire group.
How does this create unity?

Unity is having common goals, common purpose, and common objectives. The RPC structure supports and encourages this by allowing each group to be supportive of the other’s interests, working together on common issues, and providing mutual resources and assistance while maintaining focus on their specific priorities through the individual Bargaining Agents.
Forcing one group of pilots to be represented by an organization they do not support does not create unity; in fact, it will create division and dissension. This is true of forcing Frontier Pilots into IBT as much
as forcing IBT Pilots into FAPA.
I agree forcing one group on the other will not work. With that said, we have proposed a solution that will combine all groups as a single representative body. Unfortunately we have been told it will not work. I don’t believe a separate but equal structure is the right way to go.
RPC wrote:How does this benefit the Frontier Pilots?

Just as we believe the Republic Pilots should be free to choose, the Frontier Pilots will be represented by the organization of their choosing. Being secure in their representation, and having the resources necessary to provide their services, the Frontier Pilots will be in position to be supportive of the pilots at Republic. The Frontier Pilots have a CBA that is not amendable until 2015 and are obligated to comply with its
terms and conditions. Frontier pilots are not free to simply decide to walk off the job in support of other pilots operating under a different CBA. The Joint Council structure allows the Republic Pilots the right to
pursue their legal rights without the Frontier Pilots being forced to engage in what could be construed as illegal work activities. The structure, resources, knowledge, and experience of FAPA would remain available to the Frontier Pilots. In the event of a fragmentation event where Frontier is separated from the RAH companies, maintaining the continuity of representation in the future will be much more easily established.
This says the Frontier pilots want to remain separate. They want to have their contract until 2015. This contract will include 190 rates they are currently negotiating (whipsaw). How can FAPA negotiate rates for IBT pilots? This also includes the concessions they are negotiating.
RPC wrote:How does this benefit the Midwest and Lynx Pilots?

When currently furloughed Midwest and Lynx pilots return, they will return under either the FAPA/Frontier CBA or the IBT/Chautauqua CBA. As with the other pilots under the respective CBAs, the RPC structure will allow those pilots to be best represented according to the needs and priorities of the respective CBAs, while enjoying the advantages of the coordination between the Bargaining Agents.
IBT 357 believes the IMSL should prevail. We agreed to final and binding arbitration. We don’t go back on our word. We do not file lawsuits saying the Midwest pilots should not be a part of the integration. IBT 357 will not make a “best effort” to implement the award, we will stand by our commitment to adhere to the arbitrated award.

This RPC idea sounds good on the surface and in theory, but once we break it down, it is obviously not something that will unify our group. RPC is designed to be separate but equal. The Teamsters have no interest in being separate.

On a personal note, I couldn’t care less about the Teamsters. To me, this about doing the right thing for our pilot group. In my opinion, RPC is a divisive group masking itself as a potential unified body. IBT 357 has been consistent in wanting a truly unified group.

There’s only one choice – Vote Teamsters!
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Old 06-06-2011, 08:09 AM
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Open Letter to Pat Gannon (Local 357 ExCo Chair):


I’ve tried to stay out of this but can no longer. You have repeatedly taken the position of “honesty” and “truth.”

I am politely and professionally requesting that your messages to the pilots be truthful and factual. You have made several statements to your members that simply are not true (surprise, your members send your communications to us). I am not accusing you of lying, it’s entirely possible you simply misunderstood or you are misinformed. Please verify your facts before claiming them as such.

1- We did NOT say we had “no interest” in our committees working together.
2- We did NOT tell IBT (or anyone else) that we wanted you or the ExCo out of leadership under the RPC – quite the opposite.
3- We HAVE tried and HAVE had discussions on how to come together – but the “together” has been IBT way or the highway
4- We have NOT said your negotiations should be put on hold – we have said the opposite
5- We have NOT said everything smaller than an Airbus should be outsourced.
6- CHT CBA Representation, dues and contract would NOT be controlled by FAPA under the RPC
7- You have NOT offered us guaranteed positions or 357 representation on a Transitional Executive Council
8- RAH is/has NOT attempted to “whipsaw” the groups by offering your 2003 E190 rates to us.

These are only some of the statements you have made that are simply not true. There is a difference between campaign “spin” and false claims, if you truly want to unite the groups and win over Frontier pilots I suggest you learn the difference.

Feel free (in fact I encourage you to) share this email with your members, on APC or anywhere else.

-Scott Gould

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Vice President
Frontier Airline Pilots Association
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:07 PM
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Is this the same Scott Gould, VP of FAPA that said in an email exchange with Jerry Glass, as can be found under revised FAPA Exhibit 18 in the SLI proceedings:

"So if our CBA said that anyone we merge with gets stapled to the bottom the arbitrator is bound by that?!" (FAPA Ex. 18)

followed later by:

"So we're putting a wall (fence) up to prevent them from flying our airplanes as opposed to a floor (staple)- aren't we just talking semantics now? I don't see how they're realistically all that different." (FAPA Ex. 18)

It is interesting how tone changes. But, interestingly, the former FAPA President (JS- since he was not named the previous post) does say the following:

"In reading the IBT's CBA I can't find any language that does anything but force all parties into Integration talks under the LPP's guidance." (FAPA Ex. 18)

I bring all this up, because the people who are now yelling Unity, have filed a lawsuit (pending- naming me personally) and made a failed motion to reconsider with the NMB for Single Carrier Status- and this is all after the Eischen Award.

Once again, using logic and not emotion, how would RPC be completely opposite of past and ongoing events perpetrated by the same individuals- during the same time frame? Something smells very famliar.

Dan Sneddon
Capt. Republic Airlines
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:40 PM
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I don't see how that's worse than IBT producing an RAH pilot who stated (under oath), that his career expectation at RAH was to fly a 747 one day.
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Old 06-07-2011, 04:45 AM
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It has become painfully clear FAPA will do and say anything to stay in power. There is definitely a publkc smear campaign by FAPA trying to make the ibt look inept. FAPA has fought the integration and coming together every step of the way. How in the world can one believe they'll suddenly have a change of heart if "rpc" is voted in? With no bylaws or anything in place to legally bind the rpc (fapa) to do as they currently say they will, how can they be trusted? If fapa is willing to drop all litigation with rpc, then its for a reason. At this point, nothing fapa says in regards to integration can be believed.
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Old 06-07-2011, 05:51 AM
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Then nothing said by the ibt can be believed. If you are happy with what the ibt has got for you then vote for them. If not and you would like more vote for rpc. That's what it comes down to!
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Old 06-07-2011, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by terryhflyer
Then nothing said by the ibt can be believed. If you are happy with what the ibt has got for you then vote for them. If not and you would like more vote for rpc. That's what it comes down to!

And you are happy with everything FAPA (RPC) has done for you? They sold your scope away not just in LOA 39 but previously with mesa, Republic, and Lynx. They signed a LOA with vauge terms and language that included the line that throws the whole LOA and contract out if the price of gas changes. They also demanded an integration of 3 Southwest Pilots to 1 F9 pilot and refused to negotiate with SWAPA, thus forcing Southwest to withdraw their bid. All the while the leadership was getting paid any where from $20,000 to $35,000 from the pilots on top of their pay from the airline. They are truely no different than Gene Sowell.
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Old 06-07-2011, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Killer51883
... All the while the leadership was getting paid any where from $20,000 to $35,000 from the pilots on top of their pay from the airline. They are truely no different than Gene Sowell.
I realize that amount of money may seem like a lot to a Republic pilot. Here at Frontier we call that a stipend.
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Old 06-07-2011, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Killer51883
And you are happy with everything FAPA (RPC) has done for you? They sold your scope away not just in LOA 39 but previously with mesa, Republic, and Lynx. They signed a LOA with vauge terms and language that included the line that throws the whole LOA and contract out if the price of gas changes. They also demanded an integration of 3 Southwest Pilots to 1 F9 pilot and refused to negotiate with SWAPA, thus forcing Southwest to withdraw their bid. All the while the leadership was getting paid any where from $20,000 to $35,000 from the pilots on top of their pay from the airline. They are truely no different than Gene Sowell.
1. I have NEVER heard a complaint here about LOA 39. I'm not even sure what it is, but I've definitely noticed that it's a big deal at RAH. That's how much we care about that one.

2. You're lying about the LOA getting thrown out if the price of gas changes. If I'm wrong on this, please prove it.

3. You're misinformed (or lying) about the 3:1 with Southwest. Southwest refused to consider anything but a staple. We wanted some kind of ratio. The SWA time constraints were totally unworkable. Given a month or two, we might have worked that out, but you can't blame that on FAPA.

4. I think our FAPA leadership is a bargain at that price. They make less than I do (that money equates to only 20 hours a month on top of what the company pays them), and I'm very grateful that we have people willing to miss out on flying the line in order to serve the greater good.

Can you come up with anything more substantive? I've been through 3 airlines, 3 unions, and 2 bankruptcies. Frontier and FAPA outshine anything I've experienced in my career so far. Ask just about any Frontier pilot about it and they'll tell you the same.

Originally Posted by terryhflyer
Then nothing said by the ibt can be believed. If you are happy with what the ibt has got for you then vote for them. If not and you would like more vote for rpc. That's what it comes down to!
Bingo! Compare your level of satisfaction with that of the average Frontier pilot (or bottom 10th percentile for that matter) and ask yourself who is more satisfied with their representation.
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Old 06-07-2011, 09:17 AM
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This is getting worse by the day. It used to be entertainingly silly...but now actually quite scary.
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