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Old 01-23-2017, 03:14 PM
  #11  
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For those questioning Albies logic, a friend of mine was just called by UAL 12 months after completeing IOE at his regional airline. Did his three years prior to retirement on a staff tour.

Think of it like this... it's retirement with a little beer money for flying small jets with big travel benefits. Eventually you will get called but the majors will not risk the capital expenditure to get you recurrent so long as the have 12k current and qualified apps.
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Old 01-23-2017, 06:50 PM
  #12  
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Forgive the 'new guy' to the discussion. I'm in a similar boat; been out of the cockpit for going on 6 months now and will get my check-of-the-month from Big Blue around Christmas. Outside of getting a type rating/ATP a couple of years ago I haven't been in any sort of upgrade training in a long time. Couple that with 18 months non-flying by the time I retire and I believe I just became 'the choir' for this discussion.

Is there a threat of a flow thru company like Endeavor being a bad call as Delta needs their regional feeder fully staffed? In other words if they have you in their ranks could it be more difficult to get DAL to look at you since you're serving their overall need already?

Again, forgive my ignorance but curious about all the 'sign-up' and retainer bonuses in the regionals having an implied purpose which might go against the pilot's desire to get some good experience on his or her way up to heavier iron. I'm guessing it still comes down to the individual pilot's choice to chase their own plan, but I've seen the bonus game derail plans before.

I probably don't grasp how a signing bonus works in the regionals, and frankly my perspective is that of a carrier military pilot with very little understanding of how the commercial aviation world works.

This is a great thread and I appreciate the wisdom being passed by Albie as it is resonating with me based on current circumstances, so any additional professional point outs are greatly appreciated!
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Old 01-23-2017, 09:56 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by ChrisInWI View Post
Forgive the 'new guy' to the discussion. I'm in a similar boat; been out of the cockpit for going on 6 months now and will get my check-of-the-month from Big Blue around Christmas. Outside of getting a type rating/ATP a couple of years ago I haven't been in any sort of upgrade training in a long time. Couple that with 18 months non-flying by the time I retire and I believe I just became 'the choir' for this discussion.

Is there a threat of a flow thru company like Endeavor being a bad call as Delta needs their regional feeder fully staffed? In other words if they have you in their ranks could it be more difficult to get DAL to look at you since you're serving their overall need already?

Again, forgive my ignorance but curious about all the 'sign-up' and retainer bonuses in the regionals having an implied purpose which might go against the pilot's desire to get some good experience on his or her way up to heavier iron. I'm guessing it still comes down to the individual pilot's choice to chase their own plan, but I've seen the bonus game derail plans before.

I probably don't grasp how a signing bonus works in the regionals, and frankly my perspective is that of a carrier military pilot with very little understanding of how the commercial aviation world works.

This is a great thread and I appreciate the wisdom being passed by Albie as it is resonating with me based on current circumstances, so any additional professional point outs are greatly appreciated!
Just to clarify, Endeavor doesn't have a flow. They are wholly owned by DAL, but with no flow. Envoy, piedmont, and PSA are wholly owned by AA and all have flow agreements with AA. I've heard there is an unwritten rule that legacies don't want to cannibalize their own regional feed. Not sure if it's true, but I've heard at some or all of the AA wholly owneds you can't apply or get hired by AA outside of the flows. I'm sure someone will be along to clarify that and I'm sure it's in the threads for those airlines. But, as a fighter dude, I wouldn't worry about it too much. You'll have your pick of legacy most likely in short order.

FWIW, anecdotally, I've heard of many people being stuck at regionals for a long time (flying delta connection, united express, and American eagle branded flights), never getting a call from a legacy, then going to Spirit/frontier/JetBlue, and then shortly thereafter they get a call. Was it because the legacies didn't want to poach their own feed or because the airbus type rating/bigger-than-regional experience popped up? Or a coincidence (many times over)? Hiring from competitors costs the competitor money (they have to hire and train someone new). Hiring from a regional flying their feed costs them the acquisition and training event (at the regional level).

The bonuses (signing and retention) vary from carrier to carrier and seem to change monthly as the shortage grows. Some pay when you start, some pay when you finish training, some pay at the year mark, some pay at each year mark, some pay a combination of those (or I'm sure some other ways that I didn't mention). For you I'd say it doesn't really matter much though. With a fighter background, you're most likely going to spend less than 12 months at a regional. You have a retirement and medical. If I were you I would focus on working wherever you won't have to commute from. You'll get hired by every regional you apply to in this environment, and likely by most big airlines, especially with a little recency.

BL: I wouldn't worry about hurting your chances with a legacy based on what regional you choose (if you even have to go there). F-teen pilots get snatched up quickly.
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Old 01-24-2017, 07:31 AM
  #14  
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Excellent post by Albie, as usual. I'll throw in my 2 cents.

I was hired by United somewhere near the beginning of this wave...Spring 2013. I was fresh off an AF retirement but was blessed to have been current at the time. The 121 world was new and eye opening. The training was harder than I expected...I passed every event but had to do a lot more work than my sim partner who was a 15 year Commair captain and check airman. I made it through and have to admit the first year was tough. Even with the military retirement it was a pretty big pay cut. I have a wife and 4 kids and that year on reserve making $60 an hour was hard. I can remember one day somewhere near the end of my first year I went to grab something from the cupboard and it was looking pretty sparse. My wife confirmed that the reason this was the case was because we were basically broke. Now I'm not complaining but sharing as a point of reference. Those going to a regional will have it worse than I did and new hire FO pay at a legacy is a third higher than it was just 4 short years ago.

Fast forward to where I am today...soon to hit 5th year FO pay. I still love my job. I actually look forward to going to work most days and the vast majority of the flying public looks up to us. I find it rewarding in a different way than my military career was. I find satisfaction in dodging severe weather getting 185 people to their destination on a Cat 3 approach. I find I've become good at what I do and the stress level is almost nonexistent. Not only do I now have food in the cupboards but the W2 floated to the mid 200s last year. That is well above most of my peers who took corporate or DoD jobs. And that number will only go up as I approach the left seat in the next 5 years or so. I have the $$ and freedom, 19 days off in February, to pursue all sorts of hobbies. I have the freedom to pick up more flying if I want more $$...or not. It's a cliche but "when I'm home I'm home." I could leave the cell phone in a drawer when I get home. The company will never call me and I have no obligation until I step back onto the flight deck next work day...days, maybe weeks from now. And when I do I look forward to it because it has become easy and I like the vast majority of people I fly with.

I look back and remind myself that even having flown fighters for 20 years in the world's greatest Air Force...I wouldn't go back. Call it blasphemy but I like this more and it's considerably easier for over twice the pay. Here I am...a lowly retired O4...making far more than the Wing Commander I worked for and for .5% as much stress and effort.

The first year was tough. I won't lie. Making the change was a tremendous leap of faith. Yet I would not have done it differently. This job is for me and it has and will continue to open doors to more financial feeedom than I ever would've had sitting at a desk and being beholden to my email and cell phone 24/7.

For what it's worth. Ore than happy to talk with guys who are in the boat I was in 5 years ago.
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Old 01-24-2017, 03:16 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by BeatNavy View Post
Just to clarify, Endeavor doesn't have a flow. They are wholly owned by DAL, but with no flow. Envoy, piedmont, and PSA are wholly owned by AA and all have flow agreements with AA. I've heard there is an unwritten rule that legacies don't want to cannibalize their own regional feed. Not sure if it's true, but I've heard at some or all of the AA wholly owneds you can't apply or get hired by AA outside of the flows. I'm sure someone will be along to clarify that and I'm sure it's in the threads for those airlines. But, as a fighter dude, I wouldn't worry about it too much. You'll have your pick of legacy most likely in short order.

FWIW, anecdotally, I've heard of many people being stuck at regionals for a long time (flying delta connection, united express, and American eagle branded flights), never getting a call from a legacy, then going to Spirit/frontier/JetBlue, and then shortly thereafter they get a call. Was it because the legacies didn't want to poach their own feed or because the airbus type rating/bigger-than-regional experience popped up? Or a coincidence (many times over)? Hiring from competitors costs the competitor money (they have to hire and train someone new). Hiring from a regional flying their feed costs them the acquisition and training event (at the regional level).

The bonuses (signing and retention) vary from carrier to carrier and seem to change monthly as the shortage grows. Some pay when you start, some pay when you finish training, some pay at the year mark, some pay at each year mark, some pay a combination of those (or I'm sure some other ways that I didn't mention). For you I'd say it doesn't really matter much though. With a fighter background, you're most likely going to spend less than 12 months at a regional. You have a retirement and medical. If I were you I would focus on working wherever you won't have to commute from. You'll get hired by every regional you apply to in this environment, and likely by most big airlines, especially with a little recency.

BL: I wouldn't worry about hurting your chances with a legacy based on what regional you choose (if you even have to go there). F-teen pilots get snatched up quickly.
BeatNavy,(cool name btw) thanks for taking time to shade in some areas where I lack knowledge/experience, very helpful and promising!

Looking forward to starting a new career but as a pipeline military dude I'm starting to see how truly complex it is to enter the airline industry. Thanks again!
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Old 01-26-2017, 05:05 AM
  #16  
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I had all my apps out to the Majors and nobody called by my retirement date. I executed Plan B; went to the regionals and was hired by United about a year after completing regional IOE.
I can attest to Albie's advice.
I wasn't "too cool for school", kept an open mind, and I learned a HUGE amount at the regionals. I can say with certainty that my experience there gave me a big confidence boost when I got to training at United. I am quite sure I would not have succeeded at training at United without my regional experience--it was worth taking the bad pay temporarily to get a handle on the 121 thing.
Anyone with a good military resume shouldn't be afraid to get warmed up at the regionals. I am very grateful for my time there and am also able to appreciate my current gig in a way I never would have otherwise.
Good luck Gents!
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Old 01-27-2017, 08:14 AM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by BeatNavy View Post
Just to clarify, Endeavor doesn't have a flow. They are wholly owned by DAL, but with no flow. Envoy, piedmont, and PSA are wholly owned by AA and all have flow agreements with AA. I've heard there is an unwritten rule that legacies don't want to cannibalize their own regional feed. Not sure if it's true, but I've heard at some or all of the AA wholly owneds you can't apply or get hired by AA outside of the flows.
I'm in a bit of a different boat being a helo driver, but I'm making the jump here in a few months (last day is April 20th and report for training April 24th). As I've done quite a bit of shopping around deciding where to go I can shed some light on the popular regionals right now. They change weekly on where people are headed.

Endeavor doesn't have a true flow like BN said, but they have a guaranteed interview. There forum say that the success rate is as high as 66% or as low as 33% depending on which metric you use to measure it (33% first pass rate vs 66% pass rate when you include second tries, I guess you get two?). Endeavor right now has the highest 1st year pay with their annual bonus and they have pretty fast upgrade times (faster if you have hours already). They are in contract negotiations to get the bonus included in their pay rates vs being a bonus that could go away.

The AA wholly owned (they are similar in many ways to the point where if you go with them, odds are you are going to pick the one with the best base options for you). There pay is up there as well with the large signing bonuses they offer. There is a "dip" in second year pay, but they are all predicting upgrade within 24 months. They have a true flow (predicted at 5 to 6 years) which is a nice backup plan if your phone doesn't ring otherwise. You can get hired outside the flow so with the military block checked, if AA is on your short list, I don't see you waiting too long for the call.

As for the Majors not wanting to cannibalize from their regionals, my impression is that this might have been the case a few years ago. My 80 year old father-in-law (Mohawk Airlines) said the same thing. I don't think this is the case anymore. I agree if they had to pick between two equal pilots they might pick one from a competitor's regional, but I think the pool of qualified pilots is getting pretty shallow. PSA just had 3 pilots hired to AA outside the flow.

My best route is to go to the regionals to get them to pay for the CTP/ATP and build time with them. I'll keep my application farmed out the majors that I'm interested in as well as attend any job fairs where they have recruiting teams. We are counting on three years at a regional, but we could go longer if needed. Shorter would be great.

When it comes to picking one where you want to head to get current and some 121 time, the same factors always pop up. If you can live in base, do that! First year pay. QOL. Pick one where if the phone doesn't ring you and your family will be happy.

Best of luck to all looking to make the switch
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Old 02-18-2017, 09:05 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by Albief15 View Post
As I cruise into my 50s, .......
Originally Posted by Tester130 View Post
I'm in a bit of a different boat being a helo .....
Best of luck to all looking to make the switch
Thanks Albief for the advice and Tester for the common ground.

I'm an AD army helo warrant at 19 years. If I jump out, I'd never feel the heartache you guys have about pay because quite frankly, I'm paid 2/3rds of what you guys were making as officers. That's not a gripe, just the facts.

So say I get out, it'll be a hit to annual pay, but not nearly what it would be at the o5/6 level.

But as stated by Albief, I've never thought about getting out really. The only reason I'm looking now is because while I love what I do, the contracting jobs for my airframe (starting at $250k annually-half of which is tax free overseas) or starting a second career (at the age of 38 after I retire) are all things I consider pretty irresponsible not to consider.

I'm in that dreaded area where fiscally, I can't begin to validate staying in the service. But at the same time, being attack, I'll never get to truly do this job that I love again, even as a contractor.

I guess with all my ranting, did any of you love your military life and think you were just taking the new job to pay the bills but fell in love with it too?
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Old 02-18-2017, 12:11 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by tattooguy21 View Post
Thanks Albief for the advice and Tester for the common ground.

I'm an AD army helo warrant at 19 years. If I jump out, I'd never feel the heartache you guys have about pay because quite frankly, I'm paid 2/3rds of what you guys were making as officers. That's not a gripe, just the facts.

So say I get out, it'll be a hit to annual pay, but not nearly what it would be at the o5/6 level.

But as stated by Albief, I've never thought about getting out really. The only reason I'm looking now is because while I love what I do, the contracting jobs for my airframe (starting at $250k annually-half of which is tax free overseas) or starting a second career (at the age of 38 after I retire) are all things I consider pretty irresponsible not to consider.

I'm in that dreaded area where fiscally, I can't begin to validate staying in the service. But at the same time, being attack, I'll never get to truly do this job that I love again, even as a contractor.

I guess with all my ranting, did any of you love your military life and think you were just taking the new job to pay the bills but fell in love with it too?
I last flew 'The Big Rig' in October 2003. I've missed it every single day. But, I definitely don't miss all of the BS that went with it. There is life after 30mm IHADSS and diving rocket shots into a qalat.

What do you want to be when you grow up? Stay in the -64 community with a contracting job out of Redstone? Or HEMS? Or AAR? (RIP Sandy) Or jump into the FW world?
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Old 02-18-2017, 12:45 PM
  #20  
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Tattoo guy, I'm not sure you would be able to find a military pilot who didn't love his job...at least the flying part of it. Each of us had an idea of what we wanted to fly when we started our flight training. Some of us managed to get that platform and others did not. In the end nearly everyone I know loved what they flew regardless if it was their first choice or not.
Eventually getting to fly for the military comes to an end. Even if you still get to fly some, odds are you are no where near the pointy end of the spear. My last flying tour was instructing. It was great, but there was no 20mm or bruisers coming off my rails. When the instructing tour ended and I didn't see a cockpit in my future it was time to move on for me.
To answer you question, going to the airlines will pay the bills, but I believe it is something I would do even if we didn't need the income. If you love to fly, then it really will not matter if it is a CRJ or a snake. When you look past the military you need to decide what is most important to you and your family. Location, pay, what you are doing, time off....the list of factors will be unique to you. For us location and what I was doing were important. Pay was lower so long as it wasn't low for ever. Albie hit some other points with the low stress and time off. The airlines are a great fit for us. The job will pay the bills, but it would be something I would do even if we didn't need the cash.
Best of luck to you and feel free to shoot me a message if you have questions about transitioning from rotors to regionals. Sorry about the long winded ramble.


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