Kind of funny you should call it the "airline stink". Prior to the 1500 hour rule, it was quite common for part 91 pilots to take a leave of absence, go to a regional for a year or two to get the hours needed for an ATP, maybe even upgrade and get the regional to pay for an ATP and type rating, then go back to their part 91 department. I flew with several FO's who were doing this. Didn't bother me or anyone else a lick. No one ever referred to a "part 91 stink". All anyone cared about was that you were a safe pilot and followed procedures. I was happy for them that they were able to achieve their aviation goals.

Do airline pilots like me lose their “stink” after awhile or could I expect to be treated differently for my stay at NetJets?

I was furloughed from a major airline when hired at NetJets. Could have gone back to the major 2 years later but didn't want to. I went from military pilot straight to major airline, furloughed, flow down to regional, then to NetJets. I did fine in training, but we had a guy who had flown Part 135 single pilot in the same jet we were training on at NetJets. He knew the plane inside out but almost flunked out of training because he had such a hard time with SOP's and the crew concept.

So for training I suspect they like part 121 pilots and they didn't have any reservations hiring me. Now I will throw in a disclaimer, at the time I was hired starting pay was $27K/year and they were having trouble recruiting so they may not have been able to be that picky :o

Airline guys tend to do better than the corporate/91 guys because they come from a crew environment. The only adjustment they tend to have to get used to is the whole service thing. At the airlines, pilots can shut the door and the pax are out of sight out of mind. At NJA the world revolves around them. That’s the tough thing to embrace for many.

Hahaha - we only used that term in the context of hiring. A good guy is a good guy, and once hired it didn’t matter. We hired two furloughed airline pilots while I was there and both were really cool additions to the company. They *did* eventually go back to their airlines, but it was a few years later and everyone understood.

NetJets has a lot of former airline guys, many of which are refugees from airlines that have since gone under. Like others have said, it doesn't matter your background if you're a good guy/gal. It is a harder job than airlines and it is a big adjustment being responsible for everything versus walking on the plane and turning left. There seems to be a little more of an effort to make NJ a destination instead of a stepping stone so it would be reasonable for HR to try to weed out the ones just trying to make it until they're recalled. If you have an interview emphasize your service experience and the aspects about NJ that appeal to you that an airline can't offer such as the no commute, set 7/7 schedule, etc.

If we’re talking about “stink,” the bias against Part 91 corporate pilots at the legacy airlines has ALWAYS been huge because of this continuing (mistaken) notion that corporate guys are “cowboys” with no appreciation or understanding of the crew resource concept.

After 21 years in the fractional world, I’ve flown with enough people of varying backgrounds to know that it rarely matters where they came from. Most have been great, some absolutely spectacular, and more than just a few have been ham-fisted morons. Didn’t really correlate to military, airline, or corporate.

There is a big difference between a new hire from a pilot a perspective, and a new hire from an HR perspective. I am not sure very many pilots impose a “stink” on other pilots. NJA has lots of former 121 pilots, coming from a time when NJA was in a position to massively hire while several airlines were dumpster fires, and lots of them stayed, and lots of them are phenomenal pilots at NJA. This isn’t an “airline stink problem”, this is an HR problem. In a time where NJA isn’t hiring that much (or not hiring at all as of right now), I think currently employed 121 pilots will be at a disadvantage. It’s easy to extrapolate that to any furloughed major airline pilot being at a severe disadvantage of being hired. It’s not a pilot perception, it’s an HR and management perception. NJA gets to be picky in who they hire, so why wouldn’t they be? You may never want to leave NJA and know that before you get hired, but HR doesn’t know that.

Our highest failure rate in training at Spirit is 91/135 background pilots.

Our guys and girls who have left us ( NJA)and moved on to SWA, UPS, and the like have done very well, then again a lot of them are prior military, and 121, so it may not be an apt comparison.

I think there is a difference between 91(k) and 91. Not a slap at all part 91 departments. Some are great. But even the NBAA has said there are standards, procedural and safety culture issues with many part 91 departments. Same with 135. Less oversight and there are some operators that give the 135 industry a bad name.

I know the head of training at WN. He's a great dude. Former Delta guy. Lots of cool stories. He'll be the first one to tell you that WN isn't getting the quality of candidate that they used to.

We have a lot of NetJets, Flex, Citation Shares, Options, and random 135 and 91 guys with us. None of that changes the fact that they have the highest failure rate. Period. The guys that do make it through training are generally solid guys. The best guys coming through class though are former regional guys. 91/91k/135 is just a different animal. Lots of cowboys with very, very few SOP's. That just the nature of the beast. It isn't impossible to go from 91/135 to a 121 but it certainly is harder.

I'm pretty sure NJs training is 121. Maybe I'm wrong? I don't think the FAA would let them use an AQP if it was a bunch of cowboys, as you say?

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It is. All fleets not being parked will be transitioning to AQP in the next year or so. As far back as my last flight in 2017 we had very strong SOP's, much more so than when I flew at USAirways in the early 2000's.

Lol. Not a single thing in this post is true.

Left a year ago and find these above statements to be untrue also.

Being at a 135 operator now and “knowing” the head of hiring, SWA has a high regard and respect toward 135/91 folks.

SWA has teamed up with 3 x 135 operators for future hiring Destination 2. If they believed 135 Operations was a problem they certainly wouldn’t funnel potential hires toward that type of flying.

Are there differences in 135 operators and their operations? Absolutely. Always pays to gravitate toward the operators with better reputations but SWA has hired from nearly gene pool of flight operation.

Apply when you meet the minimums, at end the job fairs when you can get invited, attend OBAB, WIA and other external job fairs when they start up again. Don’t let forum spoilers discourage you and good luck.

121 training and AQP doesn't make the training harder. My type ride at NJA was probably the easiest type I have done. The training was great and very well laid out. My A320 type was one of the hardest types I have done and that was after I left NJA. A 121 jet type for a 121 operation is more dynamic and involved than the 121 training program NJA uses because it involves the gate timeline, pushing etc. and I was not used to that. Somebody who has previous 121 experience would be totally familiar with that dynamic. Where as somebody that goes from a 121 job to NJA or another 135 outfit and gets a full type, will probably think its a bit easier simply because you fire up a cold dark airplane, taxi and go. They are AQP now but there was literally zero difference in the Phenom type I did with NJA under 121, than any other 135 initial, it was the exact same.

To be fair, last time I talked to somebody in the know, NJA is facing the same training problems. It is why they brought back the sim eval for interviews. Hell, look at the failure rate of NJA pilots that transition to a newer fleet. Long time NJA pilots were failing out of the Phenom in droves 2-3 years ago, the Lat too...

Learning how to make a push call takes about one minute. I have been through three 121 training prograns, a 135 training program and training at NJA. Currently at SWA. Training at SWA is good but is not difficult. I'm not aware of any Frac pilots that had difficulty. If someone had a problem at Spirit that is an issue with Spirit or the pilot who had the problem. In my opinion the best training program that I have been through was the CMH Falcon program pre Gorman and the worst was the AQP light brought in to NJA by the US Airways crew, Gorman, Queen, et al. My guess is Sean has cleaned up that mess.

And airline flying is just so much easier.

Airline flying is less challenging, but that's why I liked NetJets. Go to do something different. My last initial was Phenom 300 and it was the easiest initial I've ever done and I've had 13 initials and several long/short requals since 1989. Phenom was also one of the easiest to fly Jets I've been in. When it wasn't broke anyway.
EMBRAER=Every Mechanical Break Requires Another Electrical Reset :p

such a sadly uneducated post. But... 1st amendment.

Spirit has undoubtedly had the worst training program of all 121 carriers the past few years! I’m not sure if it has improved in recent, but failure rates may not have as much to do with a pilots background as it does with a poorly ran training program!

Can someone confirm the current requirement for the maximum distance (non COVID, if applicable) you can live from your assigned domicile?

There is no requirement. You simply need to show up at the designated location at the designated time on day one.

Something like 94% of the NJA Pilots live within 2 hours of a base. So unless you're out in a remote area of Wyoming or something you should be fine. Longest drive I ever heard of was a dual citizenship pilot who lived with his spouse in a Rocky Mountain Ski town in western Canada. He had about a 4 hour drive to Spokane.

Why when I talk to NetJets guys when I run into them, do they look at me sideways when I mention
wanting to make a career at NJ? Is there something bad there that I’m missing? Or just the standard
grass is greener somewhere else?

I left 2.5 years ago for swa. I enjoyed NJ and what it offered. The lack of movement and flying an xls for so long was a huge turnoff and forced me to look elsewhere. Absolutely no regrets all thing considering the current state we all face. NJ was never a bad place in my eyes, but it wasn’t a long term solution either.

It’s a “location joke.” You have to be there to get it...

It all depends on where they are on the seniority list on the reaction. You probably won’t get that funny look from a 20 year captain or soon to upgrade FO. It was taking 13-14 years for guys to upgrade. That’s mostly why you’ll get that reaction.

I was looking to leave until I upgraded to Captain. Now seeing that the majors may furlough, I’m very glad I stayed.

If it’s a FO that’s been on property less than 10 years, then yes you’ll probably get that reaction as to making NetJets a destination.

There’s hardly any movement, no retirement age, and it’s very difficult to determine your Netjets future.

Covid and slowing need for air travel probably just made that light at the end of the tunnel for FOs much dimmer.

Overall, it’s a great company but it’s not for everyone. I enjoy going to work and the people I fly with. It wasn’t always that way. Things have been much better since 2018.


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Because a lot of people don’t view NJA as a career job. Lots of people love it, lots don’t. There is a host of reason to choose another career, but there are also a host of reasons to choose NJA. It wasn’t for me so I left, couldn’t be happier with the decision.

Thanks for the responses gentlemen, that actually provided some understanding as to the reactions I get.

Cheers

Also, whether you like NJA or not, if you are an NJA pilot you are a tired all the time lol.

actually the pace has become more humane , going forward from 2018, of course I’m not including the current pandemics toll on our pace which had actually became at once quite steady, and measured in my fleet ( the mighty XLS )before the world came to a halt in March.

Bingo. Somebody hired in mid-2005 has been a captain for well over a decade. Someone hired in mid-2006 has been an FO this entire time.

NJ is a good job, no doubt. Very good benefits, decent retirement contribution. But after 2 1/2 years at Brown, I kick myself in the arse for not applying sooner. As a third year FO I will make more than a topped out small cabin Captain, working 3-4 days less a month and being home much more. First 18 months was rough, no sugar coating, but I fly maybe 5-6 nights a month now. The ability to manipulate my schedule still surprises me to this day. I haven’t worked weekends in a few months. I could go on.. 12% DC, pension, etc, etc. And as far as the job itself is concerned, this job is infinitely easier.

For those considering NJ, unfortunately this virus situation has ravaged our industry, and if already at NJ, hold on to that job for dear life. After having been at NJ for 15+ years, I firmly believe the holy grail of pilot jobs are UPS and Fedex!

Who are both still actively hiring. In fact I think 5 people at NJA just dropped off the seniority list to go to brown. Smart move, even with everything going on right now.

FedEx and UPS are *always* smart moves!

One for sure started in July class.

holy grail of pilot jobs AT THE MOMENT. there I corrected for you. It’s all timing. I am sure in 2010 those furloughed UPS pilots didn’t think so.

I flew with one of the furloughed UPS guys briefly at USA Jet a DC9 operator during that period , he was slightly bitter to say the least , he got picked up by FedEx and subsequently FedEx’ed his resignation letter to Brown , not only burning that bridge , but nuking it , he was a funny dude 😂✊