Mainline Hiring
 

I have personal friends that are getting hired into the mainline carriers in wide body fleets. People going to LCC’s are getting upgrades in 3 years. Barring some new, economic world catastrophe, there is going to be some serious and fast movement within the 121 world.

Is this enticing enough for some netjets pilots to go to mainline? Would it be significant enough to speed up seniority?

Yeah I'm curious what the current attrition rate is right now.

I think the golden handcuffs are real at NetJets. I don't mean that in a negative way. Not many were leaving for the Majors during the pre-covid hiring boom. I don't see why this Major's hiring boom would be any different? I would guess many NetJets pilots look at the Majors in 2021 and see even more reasons for them not to leave. I would imagine there are going to be many 2021 W2s for 7n7 captains nearing the 300k range. That is a big paycut to take to see if the grass is actually greener.

When you look at the age data most are late 40s and older. Not much time to absorb another downturn when you are starting over. And as weird as it is to say....you do have the advantage of working past age 65 at NetJets is something unplanned happens in your life.

Now those with less than 5 or so years on property.....I'm guessing there is some attrition there? But the upgrade is surely going to drop very quickly. How will that change attrition on that end of the seniority list?

What is the current attrition rate? Who is leaving?

Taking a paycut and being forced to commute will be enough reason to stay. Sure, the eventual payout at mainline will be a bigger paycheck, but money is not always the answer. The upgrade time will go down and it is still a great place to call home. The numbers some pilots are bringing in (FO and CA) are great anyways. I can see some people leaving, however some left the 121 world and I don't see those going back fast.

If you want to fly for the airlines, they are hiring.

I was hired at NJA in 2015, left in 2017. I was awarded upgrade this month at my airline. I was making more as an FO than my NJA buddies I was in new hire class with, and I bet they don’t upgrade for another 5 years. Don’t regret the move one bit and maybe 70% of my new hire class left. I think the attrition rate of those 5 years and under will be high, and continue. I don’t see a lot of the more senior pilots leaving in droves. 5 years and under will be a revolving door.

This is the most likely thing we will see going forward. Those who are already PICs or close will most likely close out their careers at NJA while those who are on the new side of their NJA careers will have lots of great choices for how to proceed going forward and many will probably bolt. At least staying or going can both be good choices now.

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For a guy with no regrets, it’s hilarious how you keep stalking the Netjets threads. Kinda like an ex girlfriend you just can’t let go of.

Anyhow, Glad it all worked out for you but some pilots remain aware that without government intervention (ie bailouts, which are still being payed out), the 121 world would have faced mass layoffs. Netjets is now in shape to better absorb an economic downturn like it did in 2020 than any airline. Latest airline data shows terrible 3rd quarter financial results without the government aid. I prefer to fly for a company that can stand on its own….

We also don’t have our flight attendants getting punched in the face every month.

Don't get mad because I gave my opinion. If you don't like how forums work, don't log in. Everyone said the airline industry was too big to fail, and that has proven true. That is better job security than betting on NJA still being around when Uncle Warren kicks the bucket.

Oh and you are flying for a company that furloughed the highest percentage of pilots out of ALL the airlines in 2009.

Are you seriously using FAs being assaulted as a defense of staying at NJA? Are you mental? 100% of pilots working for airlines don't have to see TEB 6 times a month. Enjoy the Hanoi Hilton!

Unfortunately, the next airline furlough is always around the corner. Track all the furloughs… it will happen again. Airlines cannot continue to expect tax payers will always bail them out.

NetJets took ZERO tax payer dollars during COVID year.

Not.

A.

Penny.

NetJets emerged from COVID Year in a growth position with BILLIONS in new aircraft orders, strong year end profits and orders to increase the size of our pilot seniority list by what will be 30% over a 2.5 year timeframe. This year will be the most profitable for NetJets in 50+ years of operation, even with all of the expansion. Expansion. It’s quite a word.

Your airline took millions just to make payroll and fly around empty jets for months. They all did.

Today’s airline captain, tomorrows right seat on reserve.

Since you left, the NJA business model has done some serious retooling. The only thing we’ll lose is some FDP during a downturn.

What we’ve gained by spending a career at NetJets is stable growth, stable careers… things that are meaningful for pilots to offer their families over the years. Plane size isn’t sexy… stability is sexy.

It takes some vision and some stones to take the path less travelled… that path, if taken now at the beginning of the retirements from our list will yield enviable seniority positions over time. Some people need the “Safe path” that all airlines have promised and none have delivered for decades since deregulation. Some people need the big plane. Some people need to fit in at the BBQs with squadron buddies and ‘fit in’ with their friends who fly for XYZ and just can’t understand NetJets. At the end of the day, nobody needs to understand NetJets except NetJets pilots and families.

There is currently a backlog of Owners waiting to join the program that numbers in the thousands. This is future impending growth that we haven’t even tapped because we need the planes and the pilots. People all over the world are voting with their wallets and leaving bad service and mask mandates for private flying. Many are finding their way to us and we couldn’t be more happy to welcome them with shiny new jets and professional, happy crews to greet them. The airline cabins and gate areas have become unruly and unsuitable to considered civilized travel options. Those with money are opting out of public transport.

NetJets is more than happy to assist them.

Funny thing is absolutely no one asked your opinion. You found another “girl”.

Presently we have pilots leaving AA wholly owned and other regional carriers for Netjets. The AA wholly owned new hires are giving up the Airbus seat for a bizjet. Turns out commuting isn’t conducive to a solid family life, and that holds true for any airline, not just a regional.

Plain and simple, if you want to live in Billings, Albany, Providence, etc and fly for a 121 carrier, you will go to and from work on your own time and expense. If you want to fly professionally and not deal with non-reving, jumpseating and a two day off block between trips, you come to Netjets. There are plenty of times I’ve gotten on a 737 going to/from a trip and thought “I miss getting in the airplane and turning left”. Then I remember how much of my life I wasted commuting in the day before a trip, buying my own hotel, staying in a crash pad, busting my hump to make a 15 minute turn off my last flight to catch my last commute chance and said to myself, “nah. Cleaning the lav is way better than dealing with that sh—“. Same when I see my W-2 and think “I’d have made $70K more at <insert airline here>”. Then it’s “I spent $70k this year to spend extra time I would have used commuting with my teenaged kid, on my boat, fiddling with cars or just generally sitting on my rear end not stressing about how I’m going to get to work when all the flights on Monday are oversold, the weather sucks and there are three other guys already listed for the jumpseat”.


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And these are the exactly the reasons why I want to make the move from 121 to Fractional.

Last time I checked, ACMI are 121 carriers, pay more than NetJets, and for most of them there is no jumpseating or commuting.
And no lav cleaning either.

Don't get me wrong, NetJets is a fine 135. And it works for a lot of people. But there are other non-commuting options out there, including 121.

[QUOTE=Blueridger;3316530]For a guy with no regrets, it’s hilarious how you keep stalking the Netjets threads. Kinda like an ex girlfriend you just can’t let go of.

Anyhow, Glad it all worked out for you but some pilots remain aware that without government intervention (ie bailouts, which are still being payed out), the 121 world would have faced mass layoffs. Netjets is now in shape to better absorb an economic downturn like it did in 2020 than any airline. Latest airline data shows terrible 3rd quarter financial results without the government aid. I prefer to fly for a company that can stand on its own….

Yeah, UPS and FedEx may have something to say about this

You sure about that?

The tongue in cheek comments seem to elude you. I certainly don’t use it as a pretext to stay at Netjets, but I’ll just say the worst part of my work week is waiting at the gate to board my airline flight.

oh, and I probably saw TEB a grand total of 3 times in the past year. And the Hilton has been renovated and the kitchen does a great job - I recommend the rack of lamb.

TEB Hilton one of the few places to get eggs benedict included in the rate. It does a good job softening the blow of being in TEB.

Atlas Cargo? Doubtful.

But I’m sure it’s a fine place to see the world from another perspective.

For 17 days straight no less.

Only work 17 days straight if thats what you want. Plenty of split lines that are scheduled pretty much like 135, except with more days off per month.

Ok.. so now we’re comparing ACMI to 135 charter operators. But doing so in the fractional thread? While we’re on the derailment express, I have a wonderful blueberry muffin recipe if anyone wants it! :p

So NJA is better than regionals and Atlas? Congrats!

I think the funnier opinion is from people who have either never worked for a mainline 121 carrier, or when they did, the internet didn't exist. Everyone at NJA seems to spout this horrific idea of the airlines and how amazing NJA is yet the percentage of them that have worked for any good airline in recent times is literally zero. Why? Because nobody is willfully leaving a legacy 121 job to go to NJA unless they hit 65 and are forced out. I also remember the amount of retired airline types that actually stated after IOE and in 2017 when I left NJA it was about 50% of them.

NJASAP tracks attrition, you can easily check and see for your self. 5 YOS and under will be extremely high turnover, over 25% as long as the floodgates at the airlines are still open. No doubt the pay increases have helped at NJA but if somebody wants to go to the airlines, or go back to the airlines, they will go.

NJA didn't lower their minimums because they were getting too many high time applicants. NJA is catering to the same demographic of pilot that the regionals are. Also, don't take it so personally when somebody doesn't like NJA. You are an employee, nothing more. This in't a genital measuring contest. Somebody had asked about NJA pilots leaving to mainline so in fact my experience would be more relevant than yours, and my initial response didn't trash NJA in the least bit, I merely gave my experience.

We are doing it in "mainline hiring" thread. I just corrected some false information.

Kind of like the opinion of someone that only worked at NetJets for maybe two years and left prior to the really cool stuff started happening.

Buyers remorse is what it’s called.

You know where's worse than Teterboro? Newark!

No thanks!

Seriously, what’s your beef with NetJets? No doubt you were hired during a rough time. However, career progression, or lack there of, was no secret. You were fortunate enough to move on to a major and at the time it was with out a doubt the right career decision, and get on with one before the huge wave at that. I tried for years myself along with probably every FO who was of age, but I wasn’t fortunate enough to get an interview at any of my target airlines. By the time I had my shot, the Max issue put a halt to it and spending years commuting across the country wasn’t going to sit well with the family. So here I sit as a long term FO. And yes I definitely spent way too much time on their boards to see if I made the right decision, but I finally had to put it down. You’ve now been gone twice as long as your NetJets career, upgraded, and making more money so why keep trashing the company? A lot has improved and it’s turned into a career destination. It’s definitely not perfect but it works for some. To keep coming back and giving nothing but negative advice only makes it sound as if you regret leaving.

He's complaining over on the Alaska thread too. I'm not even sure he knows what happiness is? He brags about upgrading in 4 years and he's still not happy. Bless his heart...

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I think he misses his buddy flylow.

I find it amusing how much time and energy you spend on this board. You’re not the only one to move on from one carrier to another and peruse what’s going on at the old place, but certainly one of the few who considers their dated knowledge to be relevant and posting it rampantly.

Congratulations on your career progression. I’m thankful you’ve found somewhere better suited for your talents and skills.


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We saw only a few leave for Alaska Airlines from NJA and one does stand out who had lots of heartburn with the company and the union. Left very bitter.

As for "my truck tires are bigger and better then your truck tires" dabate...it's a boring and tired old arguement. NJA will have a tough time attracting young pilots due to the lack of forced retirement age. The come/go from after IOE to about year five is certainly higher then those leaving who have 15+ years on property and are around 53 and older. This is for obvious reasons.

NJA flying isn't for all and the true is for airline and I'm talking major, not the regionals. NJA has ZERO pilots leaving for the regionals. Why? Duh, that's an easy equation to figure for sure. One guy a few years back left for Kalitta and many were left dumbfounded as why? It worked for that person.

End of the day a person will do what they feel is best for them and their family. NJA has many reasons all ages will come and stay. Same as many will hit the regional life and hang till the call from the bullpen and go to a major. When one has been at a company years ago, left for a better life, stills talks trash and hasn't moved on we know there's more the the story. At some point one must wake up and realize to let it go.

Can you get "stuck" in Corp/Charter world?
 

So, back to mainline hiring... I'm applying to NetJets and think it will be a great improvement to the regional grind and even those first few years at a legacy (however long it takes to even get there....).
Now, say my spouse after a while says "nope, can't do you being gone 7 days in a row", I can't hold a crew choice line, and decide this isn't going to work for my family. I had one retired commercial guy tell me that moving to Corporate would "blacklist" me and make it more difficult/nay impossible to get back into commercial. Anyone heard anything like that?

Not true. Likely harder, but not impossible. With the need for pilots in the next few years, it may not even be harder.

We have had enough pilots go to 121 that your retired commercial guy is not correct.

I left NJA a few years ago. I felt NJA made getting back to 121 more difficult. It's easier to leave with an internship, 141 course, etc. I didn't have any of those and even though my record was good I felt like I needed to prove myself (again) and some look down on my NJA and 135 time.

NetJets is a very good job. I ended up not liking the increasing elderly pilot problem and, in my opinion, the pilots sold their souls for FFDP pay...QOL? Fatigue? What's that? Check out my paycheck...

No thanks.

30% of my tours at NJA were miserable. I don't think much has changed in that regard.

With that said, the healthcare is amazing and PICs make a lot of money. NJA is a very good job in our industry.

Best wishes.

My first year at a legacy was much better QOL than anytime at NJA. I can be a PIC after 2 years, so recouping the lost money is easier than I had anticipated.

I sometimes miss NJA...but overall for me the choice was clear because of the trajectory of the NJA pilot group.

Tours under 6 days are rather rare. Even the 52 day schedule (13 days per month) will usually have at least one 7 day tour. The 5 day (short tour) option is severely limited in slots allowed and it is limited to "green bases". This is not a good job for those who will have issues with being gone for 6+ days in a row. The short tours also severely restrict how much FDP pay you will be available to make.

Agreed. NJ provides a lot of opportunities to make money, but you have to go out on the road and make it happen. Base salaries are much lower than the Majors. The money is in the flying. There is plenty to go around, but you will work for it.

PIC after two years? Are you commuting? If you are a commuter, then a two year upgrade to NYC with commuting and being home less is a major factor. I dare to say most guys wouldn't take that upgrade.

Since NetJets doesn't have a forced retirement age, I know there's a large older pilot group. Does anyone have an idea of the number? With regards to what a new hire in their early 30's can hope for? If most of the pilots will retire in the next ten years, not for age but probably loss of medical and just wanting to finally retire? Thoughts on anything a younger hire can hope for in movement or issues, in the long run, making a hopeful life-long career here? Being a long-time FO doesn't bother me, but a potential light at the end of the tunnel is nice to dream about.

Professional: I can't tell you how many are over 60, 70 or higher, but I know the future is bright for anyone wanting to make NJ a career. We're on track to hire 330+ this year, 450 next year, are adding 100+ aircraft this year and next, and have ordered an additional 100 Phenoms with deliveries starting in 2023. Yes, there are a significant number of Captains who will be aging out (loss of medical, expected retirement, etc.), plus the Flight Duty Pay is allowing more folks to hit their "magic number" and retire sooner than they originally expected.

If this is the type of flying you want to do, get in NOW!

this is exactly the same cool aid they were serving back in 2007-2008. Hope it all works out. All this is just timing.