What are "Part 135 Minimums"?
 

Can anyone tell me what it means when an employer says "Part 135 minimums are a must"???

I can't access the regulations right now, but they're in 135.243. 1200 hours flight time. 75 hours instrument, at least 50 of which are in an aircraft. I think 100 hours night cross-country? Can someone verify this?

PIC requirements:

VFR:
Commercial Pilot with instrument rating or ATP
500 TT, 100 XC, 25 night XC

IFR:
Commercial Pilot with instrument rating or ATP
1200TT, 500 XC, 100 night, 75 instrument (of which 50 are in flight)

Great...Thanks!

To clarify for those out there the 500 X-C on the IFR is point-to-point flights that count for that. So it's one that's often "overlooked" because it's really a pathetic requirement.

So any point to point flight (including a landing) counts as a X-C?

That's correct, as long as you landed somewhere other than your departure airport.
Also, the instrument time is in actual flight conditions, not necessarily actual IFR conditions; which means you can count hood time toward that.

For those of you that are CFI's. Always plan your training flights to an airport 50 miles away and do a touch and go.

Yeah, I'm sure my students will LOVE that!!

Don't lose perspective. A good CFI always thinks of their logbook and flight time first. Then as a second thought how to get the bonehead student to not embarass themselves in front of the examiner.

Seroiusly, it works better with instrument and commercial students.

I tagged X/C to most lesson and when it came time to move on I had ATP mins.

Exactly...........this has nothing to do with the 50nm rule. That rule only is needed for new ratings(such as the X-C experience for private, instrument, and commercial tickets). For 135, it can be a cumulation of anytime you went and did touch-and-goes at an airport other than the one you originated from.

As I mentioned above, this one is typically overlooked, because it's really a given for 99% of the flying population by the time you hit 1200 hrs. The only folks I know that would have a problem would be any sky-diver drop pilots, banner/glider towers, traffic watch, etc...

The two airports could be 10 miles apart. Start a second column in your book for 135 x-c if that's your desired route. The 50 mile rule is only for aeronautical experience pertaining to a rating.

Good info.......

If the airport is 3 miles away, it counts as cross country for the CFI. Only student pilots need to worry about the 50 mile rule.

I'm pretty sure you don't have to land.

Actually, an airport any distance from the point of origin technically qualifies, but you do have to land there for it to count as 135 XC time.

According to the 61.1b3i, the only XC time excepted from the landing requirement is that for ATP aeronautical experience. However, 61.1b3 (Cross-country time means-) does not list any distance requirement, only a "landing at a point other than the point of departure." The distance requirements are laid out in for the individual ratings and certificates in the following paragraphs.

Oh man. Looks like I'm going to have to go through my logbook and go fishing for some 135 hours now. Woo hoo!

Oh yeah forgot to ask... I'd quote it but I still haven't completely figured this thing out. Up above where Ewfflyer said, "That rule only is needed for new ratings(such as the X-C experience for private, instrument, and commercial tickets)" Is ATP one that is subject to the 50 NM rule or not? It may have been clarified up above but I've honestly never been good with the FAR chinese.

No, a good CFI thinks of his or her student first.

I'm a Commercial Pilot, and I also need to "worry" about the 50nm rule for when I go for my ATP.

In my paper logbook, all XC time is logged, regardless of distance. To make it easier to separate, I've got two different columns in my electronic logbook (Logbook Pro): "Cross-Country" and "Cross-Country 50+." If the flight was 50nm or more, the time gets logged in both columns. If not, it only goes in the "Cross-Country" column.

Yes, the 50nm rule applies to ATP. See FAR 61.1.b.3.vi.B:
"(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems."

Yes, the 50nm rule applies to ATP. See FAR 61.1.b.3.vi.B:
"(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems."[/quote]

Be sure and note that no landing is required at an airport more than 50NM, but the flight must extend at least 50NM from the departure point.

Keep in mind that if you DON'T land, you cannot count that time towards your 135 minimums... or anything else for that matter, besides your ATP. If you choose to do that, I would suggest making a seperate column in your logbook, and call it "ATP X-C." That way, when you don't land, you can keep it seperate from your "real" cross-country time, seeing as how you can't use it towards anything other than your ATP.


Too much work / confusion for me, I just land anyway. Plus, I don't have to debate with an employer or anyone else about it's legality.

I hope you aren't serious when you say this. The "good" CFIs create the best pilot possible, and rightfully so. To do anything less is unprofessional.

It means he was probably a product of a pilot-mill, where all it's about is getting ahead ASAP despite costs and self-respect.

I was under the impression that you only count "part" of the flight as x-country time for 135. For example, take a 2.0 flight to an airport thats 10 miles from departure to do touch n goes, you cannot use the whole time since some of the time was spend doing traffic pattern. So out of that 2.0 flight if you fly at 1.5 nm per min(avg for C172) you can only count 1.2. can anyone else confirm or deny this? Thanks.

OMG thank you for saying that! I was getting scared everyone was gonna let that one go. Wow.

What if you pull the power back or do stalls and steep turns on the way over? You're reading way to into it. I think you'd have more explaining if you wrote down 1.5 and not 2.0

Wait a second when you do a 135 check ride doesnt that make you an atp?

If you are working on a certificate or rating OTHER THAN ATP and are not military then cross country will be that flight time that includes a landing at an airport over 50NM away form the original point of departure. Take off, fly to an airport 50 NM away, do a touch and go, continue sight seeing locally for 5 more hours before parking the plane. That whole flight legally counts because it fits the definition. You might call it abusive but it counts.


If you are working on an ATP certificate you can include all time during those flight that took you more than 50 NM straight line distance from original point of departure even if the flight does not include a landing more than 50NM away. Military bombers take off and land at the same place but sure do travel more than 50 miles during the flight. Military folks working on a commercial certificate can use this definition as well.



Now, for 135. The XC experience required to meet the minimums to qualify for PIC under part 135 only require a flight to include a landing at an airport other than the original point of departure. Take off, fly to the next closest airport that might be 5 miles away, put your wheels on that runway, do lazy ocho's until you are almost out of gas and then land. The WHOLE FLIGHT counts as XC for the purposes of 135 experience requirement. DO NOT HAVE YOUR STUDENTS TAKE YOU TO AN AIRPORT 50 MILES AWAY ON EVERY LESSON:mad:



If you are working towards an ATP certificate then

I took the liberty to simplify (slightly) this text taken from FAR 61.1 Definitions. This will only apply to fixed wing pilots (other than recreational) because I removed all the notes and such about other stuff that probably does not apply to this crowd. If it does apply to you then go look it up yourself. Show of hands, who is still reading?



(3) Cross-country time means—
(i) time acquired during flight—
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.


EXCEPTION

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a private pilot certificate, a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(iii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate ...omited
(iv) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate with powered parachute privileges ...omited

(v) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for any pilot certificate with a rotorcraft ...omited
(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot (ATP) certificate time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.
(vii) For a military pilot who qualifies for a commercial pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating) under §61.73 of this part, time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

if only:rolleyes:. It's pretty much the same test just missing a piece of paper.

Pesky written exam

Pesky threads from 2007

lol yeah this has been done to death. Damn feds, and their 121 135 xc mins. It REALLY should be simple.

Ya know, I really got the impression he was joking. At least... I hope to God!

[/QUOTE]

Haymaker/Hungry Pilot -

Thank you for pointing that out. This is actually a factor for many military pilots and is often misunderstood. At least in my comunity a vast majority of the flights start from and end at the same point - the 50nm and landing can get tough; but almost EVERY flight meets the 50nm rule making the X/C requirement a moot point. Thanks for clarifying.

It may an old thread but the question gets asked over and over and still takes 3-4 pages to get it straight each time.

USMCFLYR

Yes, but the answer is all in one place. The definition of cross country. The FAR's are not as difficult as we make them but you really do have to look at all the punctuation.

not a written test, an 8710. If the check airman were authorized to give ATP practical exams in that aircraft then you get get an ATP out of it. Some companies do that but it is rare. When taking a 135 test you can legally take it with the FAA instead of the company check airman and they can issue the ATP. That is only if the company allows that option. If you take the ride with the FAA then you have to be dead on where as if you go up with the company man and botch something, the check airman has the option to pause the checkride and do some retraining and then resume the checkride.

So you're telling me that if I go with my company man, then I don't need a written exam?

oh, i'm sorry i'm an idiot. No you definitely need the atp written exam. For some reason I was thinking a 135 written which there is no such thing. My fault.