Observations
 

In my career I made a study of my older co-workers everywhere I went. When I was spending time with them my questions were not about cool jobs they have had but rather how they got where they were, decisions they made and of their personal lives.

In regards to my time flying smoke jumpers Most (all) of my co-workers were single people with little in regards to assets. They made a good haul over the summer and would spend much of the winter visiting friends or touring warmer climates. Sometimes they had a plane or sailboat but home ownership did not make much sense since they were not there to even mow the lawn most of the time. Their lives were spent in solitude or with co-workers and acquaintances they barely knew.

The flying was fun but at what cost? To me this situation was leading to a lonely, aimless and fruitless future. No retirement, health insurance, slim hope of moving on to someplace better and little opportunity to develop meaningful relationships. I have always been most interested in life building. To me the life of a smokejumper pilot, bush pilot or other similar fun flying jobs were distractions from what was really important in the long run. I saw my co-workers permit themselves to be distracted by a fun flying situation without taking the time to calculate where it would lead them.

In my case I saw few whose life I envied in the fire service and moved on. Best wishes to those who stayed. It was not it is not for me. I highly encourage everyone to constantly evaluate where the path is taking them and be prepared to make corrections as necessary. Fun is fun but it takes sacrifice, hard work and an eye on a long time horizon to get where you ultimately want to go. Fun flying can be a trap for many.

Skyhigh

Ryan Air Attack Base 5-28-11 - YouTube

Who are these guys? It kinda looks like a state run division in California.

I wouldn't mind giving it a shot in that OV-10 :D

USMCFLYR

Yeah tankers drop lines of retardant to box in a fire or direct it to move away from critical areas and into lighter fuels. They do not generally drop on a fire to extinguish it. I have seen them drop directly onto a grass fire to put it out but that doesn't work in thicker fuels.

CDF,

Yeah that is a state run fire agency. The pilots are contractors working for an outfit that supplies fire pilots for the CDF (California Department of Forestry). I think it might be Dyncorp but I'm not sure on that.

That is a TOUGH operation to break into. It pays well and most guys stay their whole career after getting hired.

YET ANOTHER observation..
 

I was a bush pilot in Alaska. I was Smokejumper pilot I had fun doing it. I have worked for three Major Airlines and have been with UAL for just under 15 years. I know multiple ex Smokejumper pilots and tanker pilots and air attack pilots and lead pilots and bush pilots and crop dusters who have also done their fun flying and are now senior with a Major airline.


Reading Skyhigh's posts are kind of like reading a soap opera script. Full of drama and emotion but very loosely based on reality.

BTW, Sky, Bighorn had health insurance I surprised you didn't know that?

Oh Hoss.....:(
You are just going to invite yet another post that was copied and pasted from long ago.;)

USMCFLYR

You're right of course.

I need to stop responding to that broken record.

If they did have health insurance I don't recall that.

Skyhigh

Cutt off
 

Most from my generation are laid off. You and your friends got in to the majors at a good time. (pre-1995 pretty much the very tail end of the good times) The rest who followed have not had it so good.

... And those who come after us will have it even worse. ;)

Skyhigh

Hired at UAL in 97. But we've been through this before and you refuse to listen. I am your generation.

Well what guy that you just met is going to stand there and tell you how horrible his life really is? I'm not saying he was lying, just saying don't blindly trust everything you hear at the local FBO :). After all, Hoss, the guy with the first hand experience seems to agree a little with Sky on this one :

Hoss, quit with the soap opera script! That's what it is when Sky talks about his kids right?

If you claim to fly for the fun of it then why did you ever leave your adrenaline pumping smoke jumper spot? Would you say you're having a lot of "fun" flying a bus around the sky? My hunch is you applied for a job at UAL for one reason, $. You and Sky both got into aviation for the same reason, it just took you longer to figure it out.


Looks like we all want "adventure" and big steady paychecks but can't figure out how to fit the two together. I don't see why not. Go straight to the majors, get your seniority number as soon as possible, make your money, find a wife, impregnate her, support a family, buy an Extra 300 and spend your days off flying 20ft upside down over the tree line pretending you're chasing Nazis or something.

No BeardedFlyer - Hoss agrees that there are GOOD AND BAD things in aviation just like most of us do. Sky believes there is ONLY BAD. Why should I believe that this guy is lying to me anymore than I believe all the things that Sky says he talks to people about? Sky goes to his local post office and gets answers about USPS policy in large. I go to a guy flying the line and ask him how he likes his job. What is the difference? :rolleyes:

Hey Hoss. How do YOU like being called down from YOUR soap opera box :D
Guess he must have jumped in at the middle of this thread and missed the 1,000 other posts with drama dripping off of them like a greasy hamburger!

USMCFLYR

It is odd
 

No self respecting legacy airline captain would have given the impression here on APC that they flew for "fun" just a few short years ago. Back then it was all about union posturing, scab hating and self aggrandizing.

To suggest that they would fly for fun was pedestrian. Everyone knows that flying for the airlines is a drag. In college my professors would say that "getting there isn't half the fun, its all the fun". No one went to the airlines to have fun. It was for the big house, time off, good retirement, new Mercedes every other year and vacation condo in Aspen. The job held status and respect. Pilots were treated like they were worth something and that is why you went to the airlines.

I suppose that since most of that is all gone now it is alright to say that they fly for fun? :)

Skyhigh

Correction
 

USMCFLYR,

No I believe that aviation today is just mostly bad. We ars till a few years away from it being completely bad. :)

Skyhigh

Yep I sure enjoy getting set straight on this stuff. Hey Sky did you once again forget that I am of who you speak? The self respecting legacy captain of a few years ago?

You don't know nearly as much about who we are as you'd like the world to think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

BF

That right there has got to be one of the funniest things I've read the whole time I've been on APC!

It took me longer to figure it out than Sky?

I was flying for the majors when our illustrious skyhigh was still trying to figure out how to land a STOL 207 (by his own admission he had major trouble landing that airplane..WOW) and smooching an unsuspecting UAL PAX capt's butt thinking he'd get a job somehow by molesting a poor UAL guy on a fishing vacation AK. Look it up it's as sad an example of the drama that is Mr Sky as can be read on APC.

Sky still hasn't figured "it" out. The "it" I was speaking of is that you aren't going straight to the majors so you might as well enjoy the ride. Something about the only person who can control whether you are happy or not is you. If you aren't progressing and you aren't happy doing what you're doing get out. But it doesn't mean that EVERYBODY who flies has to be miserable by default as Mr. Sky loves to imply.

BTW What airline does a guy go to work for now days that will afford him the ability buy an Extra?

Skyhigh -

"mostly bad...."?

I've asked you many times to find something good to say about aviation before and you have always said that you couldn't find anything positive to say.
That sounds likes completely bad to me.

USMCFLYR

It has its pitfalls, but if you are aware of them and plan around them, it is not too bad. I am on first year pay and am able to make car payments, student loan payments, rent, and still have some left over for some fun. Next year I will be able to start saving some money. I figured in 5 years I will be debt free and have a couple years of living expenses saved up even if I remain on the FO scale. In this economy, a couple years out of college and not having to live with mom and dad means you are doing well. Of course being single helps.

And I wish everyone would stop acting like doctors, lawyers, and engineers are the perfect profession. There are just as many horror stories in those careers as ours. The point is if at the end of the day you are happy about your job and life, who cares if you could be making more in another field? If that is the case, get out of this industry so I don’t have to hear you complain for 4 days.

When I instructed, I taught a doctor how to fly. He had a family, a bunch of awesome cars, and enough money to buy his own plane. He hated his job. It kept him away from home just as much as our job does. He had family problems because of the stress of work and he never had any time to play with his nice toys. He used to tell me all the time that he envied my job as a CFI!

The “it” I was referring to was the realization that if a pilot ever wants a chance at raising and supporting a family he’s going to have to figure out how to get to the majors. You and Sky both know that; the difference is that Sky knew that from the first day he started flying while it took you a few seasons of smoke jumping and having fun to see that having a personal life and smoke jumping do not mix.

So you’re saying you regret having a family and would have rather kept smoke jumping instead? According to your own words it looks like you had to choose between the two but now “without hesitation” say you should have never left. Can you say smoke jumping was really more fulfilling then having a wife and kids?

Look, each of you have a lifetime of experience more than I do and I have a ton of respect for all three of you guys. I just thought I'd point out the contradictions I thought I saw. I couldn't just get on here and say what great points you have all made. That wouldn't have made for good TV!

And Sky, aviation can't be as horrible as you make it seem. If it was then why did you put so much effort into pursuing it for so long? I'm sorry it didn't work out for you the way you imagined it would but for the sake of guys like me just starting out in this business you could at least try to be a little more positive about it's future.

Agreed! Great post.

BF,

The difference is that I am a professional aviator who enjoys what I do. Which has been one heck of lot more than a few seasons of smokejumper flying and then the majors. Sky never made it and never will because he is a [...] and a [....] who blames everybody but himself for what has and hasn't "happened" to him. He is bitter and angry and he takes it out on anybody who has made a career of this business.

You don't know me you don't know what I've done and I don't appreciate your conjecture.

Hoss,

You say Sky got into aviation for the wrong reasons, that his only goal was a job at a major and a big paycheck. But as your career at UAL shows, your goals and motives ended up converging right along with his. In the end, you also wanted more money, a better QOL and the chance to spend more time with your family. I see no problem with that but why all the criticism towards Sky for doing nothing more than basically being envious of how your career turned out? Sure maybe he's a little bitter about it but who wouldn't be, especially with guys like you rubbing it in his face.

I apologize if anything in my posts offended you. That's not my intention.

Total and utter BS. I'd sure like to know what your background is because this is simple ignorance. I know plenty of guys who fly corporate, who fly for various government agencies including the BLM and USFS who have very nice lives and who make the same or more than I do and have more home time too.

Watch it pal that stuff is nothing more than attempted provocation.....Refer to my first statement and understand that you don't know what you don't know because you haven't been there and don't know how the system works. You are either a groupie who thinks they know what the deal is or you and skyhigh are buddies or you are skyhigh and I am going with option three.

Welcome to my ignore list.

So...I'm extremely appreciative for the info from 'Hoss'-I really couldn't be a whole lot more thankful. I'm also quite happy to have started this thread. I'm older than some that have recently initiated themselves into the awesome world of professional aviation. I've done so many things through the course of this beautiful life and am very fortunate to have had perhaps a more than 'adventurous' lifestyle from the start. (thanks to my awesome parents)-Basically, I'm not just some whippersnapper with all the time in the world to go out and find 'IT.' I am married, decided early on to not have kids, we do have a couple houses, so we're thankful that we do have a pot to **** in. I know that my personality, coupled with my love for life, would never settle for any 'loneliness' in this lifetime or any other, no matter what I was doing. I'm just gonna point my nose where I have the strong desire to and go for it bigtime! I'm gonna be dang good at it as well. At my age, It takes focus,uber-strong dedication, and by gosh, frankly not taking No for an answer. With much more that I could 'Rant' about, I'll just sum it up by saying this: A wise fellow once talked about being thankful that we were all a bit different; in goal orientation, desires, and generally all else that 'Is'...for he knew that if that were not the case, that 'flight deck' would be a very very crowded place. TailWinds to all!

You just cracked the code. I am the same.

Smokejumper Article
 

Here is one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/03/us...leap.html?_r=1


Skyhigh

Seems like an honorable man doing an honorable job.
Thanks for sharing the article.

USMCFLYR

Wow, started jumpin' at age 19-pretty impressive. Good article and thanks for sharing.

Cool Guy
 

I remember him. I flew out of Winthrop.

http://www.ncsbsmokejumpers.com/

Skyhigh

Go for it Orbits!
 

Sounds like a great opportunity to me. Looking forward to work everyday certainly has its perks. And going to sleep at night tired with a calming feeling of satisfaction is something that many folks never let themselves experience. Plus, this kind of experience will help you land a career with the USFS, which will help you live out your retirement in comfort. Good Luck!

Sky,

Thanks for recommending Jumping Fire. Wow, what a great read! Finally got the chance to read it, and really enjoyed the experiences he shared.

SP

Jumping Fire
 

I should pull my copy out and read it again. I am glad you liked it.

Skyhigh

It sounds like you should have gone to Dental or Law school. :D

A lot of things
 

I should have done a lot of things diffrently. :D

SKyhigh

If a guy was to get ahold of a good drop bird, is there a 'leaseback' or some way to have his own bird on a companies contract? Point being; after a career in maintenance, and another one in flight, I find it important to know the bird I'm pushing past the point of good taste. Having my own bird to have and to hold lends confidence, and if I feel like upgrading or fixing, I don't want someone else standing in the way.

Just curious. It works in the bush up north. I wondered if it worked on fire contracts, as well.

Ronin

Ronin,

It is almost impossible to break into the world of federal contracting if you are an unknown entity. Just to get started you'd better know a senator these things are highly political. If you don't have a track record as an operator you are ****ing up a rope. The Smoke Jumpers are using Casa 212's, DO 228's, C-23 Sherpa's, Basler turbine DC-3's and the like what did you have in mind for an airframe? You'll also need a chief pilot, director of maintenance stuff like that. Its not just a matter of buying some old jump bird and kicking jumpets out over a fire. You'll also need to have 500 hours PIC low level time and,100 hours of Pic turbine over 12,500 lbs to get an OAS PIC card.

Sounds like you're a hobby pilot, then? Doesn't sound like you're flying for money.

You talk about those who leave fire for airlines, as though that's a natural progression...after all, who wouldn't want to fly for an airline, right? You can't imagine someone leaving an airline position to go fight fires? I did.

Of course, I had a lot of fire experience before I flew for the airline, so I knew what I was getting into, but I enjoyed the fires more, and I made more money doing it, so why not?

You don't seem to have had much fire experience, yet you've a lot to say about it. You don't seem to have much if any airline experience, but you've a lot to say about that, too. All in all, very little credibility, and a lot of talking.

Hard to build a life out of seasonal flying.
 

Smoke jumping is very migratory and seasonal work. As such it is very hard to impossible to maintain much of a life outside of the job. It does not take 20 years in the business to see that either.

The natural progression for those who wish to have something more than merely an aviation job is to look to the airlines. The airlines offer better schedules and some hope of access to a regular life.

My goal was always to build a life. One that supports the maintenance and development of friends family and solid finances. It is my belief that most are seeking the same. Flying seasonally makes it nearly impossible to have any meaningful relationships or to create a life on the side. It takes stability and momentum to get something going in your personal life. To be uprooted every six months almost insures a single life that accumulates little in regards to what most people consider as being successful.

The average person moves on quickly from smokejumper, bush or fire bomber flying. Those who stay usually spend their winters living alone in small apartments and find it hard to even keep a house plant alive.

Skyhigh

It takes more than one season, that's for sure. It's very possible, in fact essential, to have a "life" outside of the job. Virtually everyone that does the job does have a "life" outside of the job. Why didn't you?

Perhaps you simply never had any experience with the job, which is evident in your writing.

I was fairly convinced from reading your posts that you had no concept of your subject, and this conclusively proves it.

There is very little turnover in fire work; most who do it stay with it, and for good reason. I don't know anyone in the fire business who lives alone in a small apartment. Most are quite happily married with kids. If you're the odd man out who lives alone in a small apartment, unable to keep a house plant alive, what does that say about you?

Your observations, if one were to believe that to be the case, certainly represent an extremely small and limited segment of the industry, and are not typical or a reflection of reality. Is this really your impression from your one season on the job, or are you simply lying and making it all up. Very obviously most of what you recount isn't true. Is there some sliver of truth to what you say, or are you inventing every drop of it?

You wouldn't know about that, as you're not an airline pilot either, are you?

You're wrong, of course. At five hundred dollars an hour, I know individuals flying fire who cleared two hundred thousand this season. They'll have just over three months of time committed to the job.

Put another way, they'll have just under nine months of free time: that's 24 hours a day of free time.

Which airline offers that kind of free time with that kind of wage? You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

Whatever
 

John,

I hope you are happy with it. All I am saying is that most people are searching for a middle class lifestyle, 2.3 kids, retirement and maybe even the ability to coach their kids t-ball team. Very hard to impossible to make that happen with any seasonal job. The airlines suck but at least there is the hope that one can eventually attain some resemblance of a normal life.

It is the same with bush pilots, fishing guides and crop dusters. Most are single or are about to be. Relationships and investments need continuity in order to have the best chance at survival. I was only a smokejumper pilot for one season but worked seasonal jobs for eight years total. They all offered the same life and outcome. Once I made it to a stable regional things got much better.

Not only could you use your own experience but you can tell by the lives of your co-workers. The career seasonal guys I flew with were nothing I envied. They made enough to get by just fine but came home at the end of every season to an empty apartment. I wanted a life. If you are happy with it though then that is great.

Skyhigh

Really? Hard to make happen with a seasonal job? When one has most of the year off, that's a hardship to a family? When one doesn't have to commute every other day, isn't constantly gone and stressed out, that makes it hard to have a "normal" life?

I don't know anyone that's sought out .3 kids, let alone 2.3. I certainly have no desire to coach a t-ball team. I'm glad there are some that do and those who enjoy it, and more power to them. I hate sports.

You stated that the "airlines suck," but you don't fly for an airline, do you?

Then again, you don't fight fire or do other seasonal flying either, do you?

You're not flying for a living at all, are you?

You should know that we aren't "crop dusters" or "firebombers." Nobody in the business uses those terms. We're aerial applicators or agricultural pilots, and air tanker pilots. This isn't something you've done. It's something I've been doing since I was a teen. Again, you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Most ag pilots I know (and I know a lot) are happily married, and have been for many years. Many work year-round, others do flying in the summer and maintenance in the winter. Others simply take their off seasons off...one long vacation with more time for family and friends and personal life than any airline position.

I know ag aviators that only work at night, spraying for a few hours each night, sleeping in the morning, with the day and evening free...even in the middle of the busy season.

I took a fire season in one location, lived in a condo by a lake, had an air conditioned base to work from, and spent a total of one night in a hotel the entire season. My son came to stay with me for a few weeks and got paid well for his time. He learned a lot, and even got a ride in the airplane, as well as the air attack platform to watch me working, dropping on fires. He spent time turning wrenches, loading airplanes, and even got to start the engine a few times. Rough life, that. We ate out every night; good food. We went to movies. We had fun.

When I came home at the end of the season it was to a four bedroom house in a quiet neighborhood with a wife that cooked good food, two dogs, two cats, four kids, and a full home schedule. Just like I'd never been gone.

I've done temp work and seasonal work for decades, often in concert with other longer-term work that I was doing, and I have to say you really don't seem to have any concept what it's about. I've done regular turns in Iraq and Afghanistan and other garden spots for years on end, without any damage to home life, and I've worked with a lot of others in the same boat. Frankly, international airline work was far more detrimental and far more stressful than firefighting, or ag work.

I've had my kids in the field with me in the past, as well as my wife. Some have had their girlfriends, wives, or family come out in the field and treat it like a vacation. Life's certainly an adventure, and firefighting and ag work most definitely can be, but what you describe may be a reflection of your own life...but it's got no grounding in reality.