Any Smokejumper Pilots out there?
 

Hey fellow av8ors,
I'm very enthusiastic about becoming a smoke jumper contract pilot. I've been chatting with the folks at Bighorn in WY. I like them because of the aircraft and they have the contracts with the jumpbases that I'd love to work with. I've seen some post from 'Airhoss' and others but just joined the forum and don't have enough post to p.m. yet. I'd very much appreciate being able to talk with pilots with experience flying smokejumpers. I'm flying the Pilatus PC-12 now and have about 400 hours flying jumpers. I've also got a bunch of time on fire crews from a 20 person hand crew to a helicopter rappel crew. Thanks for any help in advance. Blue skies and tailwinds!

I flew for Bighorn back in the early 90's as a smokejumper pilot. I tried to PM you but it wouldn't let me as your post count must be to low. I'd be glad to answer any questions that I am able to answer.

I flew Casa 212's.

I was based in Fairbanks Alaska at Ft Wainwright Army Airfield. And extended to several lower 48 bases such as Redmond Oregon, Missoula Mt and Winthrop Washington.

The flying is great the sitting gets OLD!

Bighorn is an established company and overall is pretty good but get EVERYTHING in writing as what they tell you at the beginning of the season and what they actually try pull at the end of the season don't always match up. IE If you live on base in the provided Army quarters we'll pay for your housing..Right!:rolleyes:

What specific questions can I help you with?

Nice to hear from you Airhoss-I appreciate your time and advice. I had questions a bit wide ranging and many, ie what it takes to get in, what kind of applicant is 'that successful' one,what training is like, what's the checkride like,is the pay reasonable, are you expected to work straight thru the season or can you get 1 or 2 days if you need 'em, as an FO-do you actually get to do some flying or are you more times than not just on the radios? How do they decide where you might be stationed-I know that's quite the list of 'rattle'-but any info would be great. My posts are low but I'll get that worked out for pm. Thanks tons.

OK here we go...:)

Right place at the right time pretty much. You are a bit shy on your hours but there is no minimum requirement to be an F/O. I had about 3000 hours and a good bit of Alaska time which they liked. I also had some decent multi time. AND I was OAS carded already with a low level wavier that I just happened to pick up from another job that required it. Back to number one though go up to Sheridan and meet Bob and Chris Eisele the owners of Bighorn Airways and let them know you are interested. It can't hurt.

All kinds, go meet Bob and Chris. You are on the right rack with your turbine time. But as I said your TT is kind of skinny and I've known a few guys to do it with your TT and even less. Your wild land firefighting background is going to be a real bonus.

When Bighorn hires you. You'll have to go through their training program which is pretty rudimentary, just a basic pt 135 style ground school. Some steep turns under the hood some stalls some bounce and goes stuff like that. Once you get out to your jumper base you'll have to take an OAS check ride. You'll get several training sessions first in dropping jumpers, and then in low level para cargo delivery. You'll also get some ground school on how to identify a fire IE the tail the head left flank right flank ETC and how to run the radios. Running the radios on a fire is a major cluster as you might have 3 or 4 freqs to keep track of all at once. Also at least in Alaska, the Smoke jumper airplane assumes overall command of the fire if there isn't a fire boss or a lead plane on scene so you'll need to get up to speed on air traffic control real quick as you might find yourself running the show, controlling the tankers putting them in a holding stack clearing them in hot getting heli-tack crews worked in taking asset requests stuff like that. It's a handful.

The first time I ever did it was the first time I ever did anything like that. I had three tankers and a helicopter to work in between multiple low level cargo passes. You are going to earn your money on a day like that.

It used to be great. As an F/O you'd generally earn about 20K on a 90 day season. That was 20 years ago. If you got extended you could almost double that. I hear captains are making about 50 to 60K for a season now days. It beats the hell out of the commuters.

A smoke jumper contract is 12 days on 2 days off you don't get to pick them. Contracts are either 90 or 120 days long. Don't plan on having any kind of a life during fire season your butt belongs to the USFS or the BLM.

It depends on your captain. I flew every other mission from take off to landing including all the on scene fire fighting when I was an F/O. Some guys are not cool about that. Some are and a lot it will depend on your skill level. A lot of guys will have the F/O's fly the non "tactical" portion of the mission and do all the low level firefighting stuff themselves.

When I was flying for Bighorn they had only one contract station and that was Fairbanks AK with the BLM. So your primary contract was out of Ft Wainwright AAF. However in AK you'll get out based depending on the fire activity. I spent time in Palmer, Ft Yukon, McGrath, Galena and a couple of other areas. Generally you'll get extended to the lower 48 later in the season. I have been based in Redmond Oregon, Missoula Montana, Winthrop Washington and La Grange Oregon.


The smoke jumper mission in AK is way more varied than most think, you could be fighting fires one day and hauling a level II crew to a remote airstrip the next. You can spend an 8 hour day doing a fire patrol and never drop a single jumper. You might find yourself doing a para cargo resupply on a project fire and spend most of your day dropping low level para cargo. I think my record was 44 individual cargo passes in one day. I fought a fire one morning and on the way back orbited at 17K over a glacier doing a radio relay for a rescue attempt on Mt McKinley. I've also responded to a car wreck on the Hall Rd where the nearest help was hours away. We parachuted a paramedic team onto the scene who stabilized the victims until a helicopter could respond.

I hope that helps and please remember that my info is almost twenty years old I'm sure some things have changed.

Wow-This is incredible and thorough-I can't thank you enough and it quite actually helps me be more focused and more oriented for sure. Avery very large Thank You.

orbits,

I'll say this without hesitation. Knowing what I do today and looking back I'd never have been an airline pilot. I would have stayed on as a smoke jumper or a lead pilot. I would have begged borrowed and stolen my way into the BLM or the USFS and been eligible for a full retirement in several years.

The flying is AWESOME the country you get to operate in is spectacular and the people are motivated positive individuals. Smoke jumpers are the special forces of fire fighting and you won't meet a more diverse, motivated, if not somewhat eccentric bunch of folks to work with. I knew guys who were aged from their early 20's to their late 60's and ranged from PHD and MD educated all the way to high school drop out loggers. There is nothing quite like rolling in on a steep ridge on a hot fire, your nostrils filled with thick white wood smoke, coming over the ridge at tree top level then diving down the slope at a 45 deg angle, bulls eyeing your package into a 200' clearing in between the trees knowing that you've got to do it 10 or 15 more times before you have to go home fuel up and do it again.

I flew my last season 19 years ago and I still miss it. However with a family to raise the 120 days on the road would be very tough. I plan on trying to going back to some contract flying once my kids are out of the house.

My strong recommendation is GO FOR IT BRO!

Good stuff Hoss. Thanks for sharing.
Sounds like a specific skillset required.
I'd sure have liked to have given it a go earlier in life :D

USMCFLYR

I think you would have loved it. The ONLY guy I've ever talked to who didn't absolutely love fire fighting was.........You guessed it..Mr. "I should have been a garbageman" Skyhigh!:D

Smokejumper pilot?
 

Yes I was a smokejumper pilot. It was fun of course however it is very hard to make a life out of it. Most who do the job are single people who rent. I personally can not see how to build a life of any value out of what smokejumper flying entails.

You are gone for literally 5 to 7 months in a row. Hotel to hotel. Hooch to hooch. 14 days on with 2 off for months on end. Smokejumper pilots commonly do not fly IFR nor do they fly that much at all. It was normal to get perhaps 200 hours out of a five month season. Needless to say it is not a career to build to the airlines or anywhere else for that matter.

I personally want a life. I saw the need to live in a home that you own with a family while building a career that is going to be worth something one day. Of the career smokejumper pilots I knew they did not live in a manner that I envied nor did they even seem to like it much themselves.

Years later I was able to help a former jumpship captain friend of mine to start completely over as a regional FO at 48 because he was so despondent over his transient life as a smokejumper pilot. Life at the regionals is bad so for this guy to bail on the left seat of a CASA for 18K per year and 8 years to upgrade with a smile on his face tells you something.

I personally never really cared about having "fun" as a pilot. I wanted a career to provide for a solid family life, provided a good living, stable home life and good benefits. Somkejumper flying commonly does not lead to all that. The flying was fun but does little to help build a life or future.

How was that Hoss ! :)

Skyhigh

Hoss -

As you can tell from the first paragraph of his last post - if you don't have the same idea of the Amercian dream as him, then you are a lost and wandering soul. Everyone must have the same vision of life and future or it just doesn't work. If only we were all so blessed :rolleyes:

USMCFLYR

Sky

It is truly amazing how much insight you and knowledge you picked up during your one season as a jump pilot.

I've flown as much as 400 hours in a season and as little as 200. Your dissertation was however extremely consistent with all off your other sniveling and whining. You simply got into aviation for the wrong reason I'm glad for your sake that you got out.

After you let the cat out of the bag on how much trouble you had landing a STOL C-207 I'm guessing that you didn't get to do much flying during your long and illustrious career as a jump pilot?

One season was enough
 

Airhoss, USMCFLYR,

I flew one season and received an accommodation from the forest service for my help during a rescue, an open offer to return whenever I liked from my employer and a letter of recommendation from every captain I flew with. I also am still good friends with a few guys who still fly there and have recent information from them.

I never wanted to fly in the bush or for the smokejumpers. All I wanted was a line number with UAL or Alaska Airlines. Now is that to much to ask for? Both you guys have had good paying careers. No matter how much fun you are having it still stinks to be poor, it stinks to be lonely, it stinks to be on the loosing side of life.

Every fall I sent out 200 applications, resume's and letters to companies all over the US. The smokejumper contractor called me. I did not even know who they were when the call came in. I took the job so that I could move on to the regionals with some turbine time under my belt.

Perhaps you guys should put your money where your mouth is and quit your comfortable jobs in trade for a studio apartment and dismal future as a smokejumper pilot?

Note: For that matter I have letters of recommendation from every place I ever worked. I am a good and experienced pilot but that does not count in the airlines for much.

Side note: As I write this I am holding my baby son in my lap, and in my home instead of sitting in a lonely ready room someplace reading a ragged months old sorry copy of Flying Magazine.

Skyhigh

Yeah it is. If you got into the business with that goal in mind you were kidding yourself it's a one in a million shot. I am one of those guys who got into flying because I enjoy it and love flying. I have taken something good out of every flying job I've ever had. I was never one of those "got to be airline pilot or life sucks guys". I enjoyed life did what I loved doing and things sort of came to me naturally.

I think you got into the business with false expectations. That is kind like becoming a ski patrolmen because it's a great job but hate to ski then ***** about the poor wages. If you get into flying for the money there is a huge chance that you are going to be sorely disappointed.

Sky you always talk about how USMC had such a cushy career. What stopped you from signing on the dotted line? You think you sacrificed being a civilian GA pilot? How in the heck would you have handled going on a 6 month cruise or better yet going to war?

I don't have to put anything where my mouth is Sky.
I have earned everything I have.
If that makes you jealous then add it to the list of things that have disappointed you in your life.
You sure patted yourself on your back quite a bit in that last post.
Just who are you trying to reassure?

USMCFLYR

Sidenote: He doesn't know Hoss, but he sleeps well under the blanket.

Yes he does..


It's amazing to me that Mr. Sky (the Forrest Grump of aviation apparently) lucks into a jump job one which many many people would gladly give an appendage to have and gets to do some of the most incredible flying known to man in some of the most gorgeous wild country on the planet. And his take on it was that he didn't get enough instrument time and it wasn't a prime airline time builder.

One mans lottery ticket is Skyhigh's burning hell. I for one am very happy that a no account, ungrateful, (attempted) ladder climber, like Sky is out of the business. There are plenty of folks who are hoping and praying for a chance to that kind of flying. And a guy like Sky is nothing but a career blocker to real pilot who loves to fly. Good riddance.

For everyone of Sky's bad examples and tales of losers and reprobates I know ten guys who made it. I know several who got on full time with BLM or the USFS which for Sky's information are (also by Sky's estimation) the holy grail of jobs. GOVERNMENT JOBS. They make more than mailmen, they live in really cool places and they have great medical, dental and retirement.

News flash!!!! Not everyone who gets into flying wants to be a major airline pilot. Try to keep that in mind Sky.

Military career ?
 

I was not interested in a military career. I would not have liked a 6 month deployment.

I studied to be a Flight Officer in college. We all graduated after passing a 727 flight engineer school taught by retired UAL airline pilots. Guys who graduated just a year or two ahead of me would return in AA, CAL, Eastern or UAL uniforms to give speeches to the underclassmen about how great it was to be an airline pilot.

My university was allotted 10 internships at UAL the year before I was eligible. We did not have APC then. My peers and I had no reason to think that we were getting into a wasted career. For myself all I knew was that I had a special knack for flying. I passed every test, check ride and class with flying colors. I was fit, had perfect vision and was well liked by my employers. I suppose that is why I like to spend some time here. People need to know what they are getting into.

My generation of pilots all had the same expectations of our flying careers. It was a job similar to that of an electrician, plumber, engineer or accountant. We all had paid dearly and sacrificed much to develop a special skill for the job market. Had I known the truth about what folly aviation was I certainly would not have chosen flying.

The same goes form many here. They also hold dreams of having a life one day, owning a home, creating a family and building a life. Or perhaps they do not even realize what it is that they are giving up by choosing job like being a smokejumper pilot. Before you know it you have blown all your other chances at life and are stuck to become another jumpship burnout destined to live their lives out of a suitcase. No real home, no family, hobbies or retirement plan, just a stack of logbooks and a few pictures on the wall.

What I am writing about is what it takes to make for a successful life. Something that transcends what you do for a living. We all know that flying for the airlines stinks on ice but we do it because if you are lucky it can provide just enough sometimes to have a life too.

Skyhigh

Ironic I guess
 

I would have been very happy to have walked straight out of college and into a FE position with a major airline. Someone there is blocking me from my dream.

As I have said before I went into aviation to have a rewarding career what I got was an adventure instead. I "lucked" into all kinds of flying jobs that plenty of others would have given their pinky fingers to do. I also flew a lot of off airport stuff in Beavers and Cessna's, air ambulance in Learjets and Citations, air attack for the forest service and recently was offered a highly coveted taildragger job for a nationally known company.

It is not my fault that my career was sidetracked into that stuff. I just wanted a good airline job and I don't think I can be faulted for that. We all have our dreams.

Skyhigh

All I am saying
 

I am sure that you and Hoss have earned everything you have. My point is that having a solid paycheck direct deposited into your bank account and a healthcare card in your wallet is something that I never knew as a pilot. It is no fun to be poor.

Skyhigh

It doesn't work that way. Get over yourself.

And that person is named Skyhigh.

Poetic Hoss
 

Airhoss,

It does work that way in some airlines and parts of the world. UAL hired 200 hour guys in the 1960's, but I knew that I was going to have to put some time in part 135. As a kid my fathers flight instructor was hired on with UAL in the mid-1970's with only 1500 hours of total time. 50 of that being as SIC in a lear jet. All I said is that I would have liked it is all.

It does not currently work that way however given the path that wages and compensation have been taking I would not be surprised if in the near future the legacy airlines would start up a cadet program. People are getting wise. Most look to aviation as a career and not as some sort of personal vision quest. Take away the pay and so goes much of the incentive.

Hobby pilots fly for fun. Professional Pilots fly for money. (or at least they use to.)

Skyhigh

Oh this is just to good not to share :D
I was at an FBO today and a couple of guys stopped to chat a little bit.
We shared some flying stories and then one of them turned away to walk inside and the back of his shirt read something affiliated with the USFS. I asked the older guy what they were doing there and he mentioned that they were working on many of the fires down in the TX and LA area. I just couldn't help but chuckle and decided to play a little of the Skyhigh game, so without telling him that there was this guy who insists that they are leading unproductive and unhappy lives, I mentioned instead that I understood that they spent a lot of time traveling and on-call. The answer was yes to both btw. I then asked some family oriented questions when the other guy walked back up to where we were standing. Believe it or not - - BOTH of these guys are leading PRODUCTIVE AND HAPPY LIVES complete with homes, cars, and yes.....even children. It is too bad that I didn't have more time to delve into their personal lives to try and find out why they would tell such blasphemous lies, but KMSY was waiting and we had to go ;)

USMCFLYR

Oh Yeah-Good Healthy personally deep rooted heart felt dialogue. Very good stuff-Pretty much a fact that there's too many points to highlight that I'd remiss only mentioning a couple. One thing I will say is that after reading this great stuff,I'm more dedicated to 'scratching this itch' to learn to be as professional as I can be at this type of flying. As a wildland firefighter, while becoming a strong member of my crew(s), different assignments led me to be 'bitten' by the aviation bug pretty hard. From initially joining a 20 person hand crew up through rappelling from the Heli, I really believe I've got an innate connection with this type of work and the desire to good at this, I've got to go for it. I can't wait to read through all the previous posts again, awesome stuff. Thanks guys-I'm actually hoping for more!

I always find it highly amusing when Skyhigh lectures me on what a professional pilot is or should be.

Sky when you step back and look at the big picture it's really pretty hilarious when you lecture senior airlines pilots about how to be an airline pilot.

Great thread, with an opportunity to see how a sector of our profession is viewed from two completely different perspectives. Both sides are actually correct, and very helpful to the discussion. No barbs needed.

While I would most certainly fall into the side of loving the adventure flying that air-tanker, smoke jumper, and lead plane pilots offer, I totally respect Sky's assessment. For the record I did leave my job at one of those majors Sky mentioned by choice to take a shot at flying fires. After a disappointing set back last summer, I am still trying. Selecting "center autopilot to command" can provide a comfortable paycheck, nice layovers, and excellent schedule, but feel so empty inside for someone who is wired to live an adventure. Yet I know the points Sky has brought up are very valid concerns that need to be weight out carefully (esp. true for those with younger kids) when one is counting the true cost of "adventure flying".

I am absolutely certain Sky will not regret spending time with his kids, and staying true to his strong convictions. He can likely fly for the majors latter if he chooses, yet there is no pause or rewind button when it comes to time at home. It goes by too quickly. At the same time, I am equally sure there are many who are stuck on the wrong side of this career fence struggling everyday to live another pilot's dream.

Flying international lately has reminded me that when I see a beautiful sunset turn into darkness, someone a dozen time zones away is looking at the same thing as a sunrise on a new day. It all depends where you are as to how you will view it.

AirHoss, would love to hear your story sometime :)

SP

You might want to do a search on some of Mr. Skyhigh's previous posts. This is a man with an agenda.

Hoss -

I'm hearing them a lot this week all over TX.
I'm really missing even the comm. :o
"We're going tactical (freq).....we'll check back in later", or
"We're diving down to the fire now" :)
I love having a mission too.....but this is bringing back similar memories a little.

USMCFLYR

Is there other places besides Bighorn that do this kind of work?

Yes but I don't know who currently has contracts.

I hate to assume here, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say they want Pt. 135 mins?

USMC,

Aerial fire fighting is run pretty much just like any battle. In fact the OAS/USFS/BLM takes most if not all of their on scene procedures from the military. Our para cargo manual was a Vietnam era USAF para cargo training manual.

Kind of funny as they had non pilots administering the SOP's. When I first got it is was an exact copy of the Air Force manual with only the names changed. It included making evasive maneuvers and ground fire avoidance while in a drop pattern and after dropping your load. I asked what we were "evading" and who was shooting at us? I got a room full of blank stares. :D

They still have some left over military procedures in their drop manual like making level 60 deg bank turns either direction after a drop and keeping a drop pattern short and steep and that it should be completed in 2 minutes or less. The non flying brass in charge just can't let go of what they don't understand.

Sound Familiar?;)

For an F/O pt 125 mins are basically a commercial with instrument rating and appropriate cat and class ratings. So yeah I guess you are right.

here are some pretty good vids.

The first one shows a full effort fire with helitack, basket work, paracargo, ground teams and tankers.

THE DROP ZONE -- Compilation from the 2008 Fire Season - YouTube


Casa cargo drop - YouTube


Paracargo Drop - YouTube


CV-580 Airtanker - YouTube
Firecat Action - YouTube

@Airhoss

That sounds like it would be a major adrenaline rush. What I'd give to do that for awhile.

Good stuff I meant to say Pt. 135 lol. Thanks

Ditto

135.245 Second in command qualifications.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b), no certificate holder may use any person, nor may any person serve, as second in command of an aircraft unless that person holds at least a commercial pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and an instrument rating. For flight under IFR, that person must meet the recent instrument experience requirements of part 61 of this chapter.

NEVER ASK WHY HOSS! :p Just enjoy!

Orbits -
I saw this aircraft on the deck at KABI today (N14447).
I didn't see any crews around to talk to but they had quite a few aircraft on the ramp. Hope this stirs the blood up some for you.

Photos: Lockheed SP-2H Neptune Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

USMCFLYR

Heck Yeah FLYR-great shots-Blood stirred up...Actually it's in the blender and the setting is on 'frappe.' I am so glad to have this 'thread goin on!'

Thanks for sharing those awesome vids Hoss-some of the action brings back some great memories and the rest reassures my will to fly that stuff! Psyched!

Hey Airhoss-I was reading through all these awesome post again and concluded that I should clarify that I'm up over 1000 hrsTT and 400 of those are flying skydivers. I noticed my initial post perhaps insinuated that I was 400TT- Just for facts sake-I thought I'd clarify. I've had a blast lookin at the vids-Thanks Tons.

A Great Airtanker Video - YouTube

I just watched this one and thought it was really good if you didn't pick it out of the line-up from the previous videos Orbits.

Hoss - I didn't realize that they seem to used more for blocking actions and setting up some sort of breaks than actually dropping on the fire for suppression.

Of a funny note - at time 3:20 I thought I was watching video of myself when I first started using the manual trim in the King Air :D:o

USMCFLYR

SmokeJumper Pilot
 

As I mentioned before I blindly sent a cover letter and resume as I did every fall to 200 companies all over the nation. I did not know anyone at the company nor did I ever speak to anyone who worked there prior to getting the call. My name got pulled out of the hat because I had a lot of part 135 Alaska time.

I spent many years stuck in the bush flying various jobs. One of the jobs I did in Alaska was as a Alaska Department of Forestry contract pilot. I flew an Aero Commander in air attack, fire spotting and transport. The Smokejumper thing was a bridge for me to get out of Alaska. It was turbine time at a company that was from the lower 48 but still flew much of its year in Alaska. In turn I was a valuable asset to them because I knew how to operate in the bush and had experience with most of the places we eventually went.

I knew how to fly low and slow and held an attitude of self reliance that bush pilots develop. After my contracted season was up I was able to get a job at a lower 48 Learjet operator. I could have stayed flying smokejumpers and made a career out of it however the pay was not all that great when compared to a legacy airline job and you are literally gone for 4 to 7 months in a row.

Life on the road like that is hard. You can not even take care of a houseplant let alone a wife and kids. It does not stop either. That schedule goes on for year after year. No water skiing days at the lake. No more 4th of July celebrations with old friends. Every summer from then on is about sitting in the ready room and going to the next fire. Everyone I worked with fantasized about getting out. Most did, a few wisely realized that they had reached the top of their personal ladder and stayed. They were not married and had something about them that limited their career progression.

A good book on the subject is "Jumping Fire" by Murry Taylor. I personally knew the author and many of the people in the book. He wrote much of it during my time flying them and I am involved with one story he writes about. A very good read for anyone but especially for those who are interested in smokejumper flying. The author does a good job of describing the hardships that a life on the road like that takes upon a person.

Smokejumper flying is romantic and fun but really does not lead anywhere.

Skyhigh