Frustrated
 

Ok, this may come out as a newbie rambling, but I
Have 3 years experience so hear me out. Today
I was practicing with my whiteboard for CFI training, and
My mom interrupts me. In a light hearted way she
Says, "You are not good at teaching" Although mad, my
Mom has a point. She graduated college as a teacher,
She knows im not a people person and im shy. The thing
That frustrates me about Aviation as a career, is that you
Have to CFI to advance. Most any other career you
Don't teach as entry level, but you do it after years
Of life experience. A truck driver dose not teach for
His first job, he goes OTR. Why are there not more
Entry level jobs for a pilot? If you ask me, 135 cargo should
Be entry level. This career is frustrating as it is now, with the
1500 hour rule.

Ok, this may come out as a newbie rambling, but I
Have 3 years experience so hear me out. Today
I was practicing with my whiteboard for CFI training, and
My mom interrupts me. In a light hearted way she
Says, "You are not good at teaching" Although mad, my
Mom has a point. She graduated college as a teacher,
She knows im not a people person and im shy. The thing
That frustrates me about Aviation as a career, is that you
Have to CFI to advance. Most any other career you
Don't teach as entry level, but you do it after years
Of life experience. A truck driver dose not teach for
His first job, he goes OTR. Why are there not more
Entry level jobs for a pilot? If you ask me, 135 cargo should
Be entry level. This career is frustrating as it is now, with the
1500 hour rule.

To the first bolded statement, that could not be farther from the truth. To the second bolded statement, flying 135 has challenges that far exceed an entry level position. I am going to go get my popcorn ready now. :cool:

You have three of experience doing what?

I'm sure there are numerous times in your life that you didn't listen to you mother because you knew better right?
Why would you start now? ;)

I agree with the CFI not necessarily being an entry level job, but were you so uninformed about the civilian aviation industry that you didn't know this?

I never understood why? It's not like you are
Flying an approach inverted single engine in IMC.
An Airplane could care less how many hours
you have. What matters is a Pilot who has
A deep understanding of his craft and has a
Saftey conscious. In my opinion it should be entry level

I wouldn't get frustrated about someone saying "you don't know how to teach" especially when you are brand new and trying to find your own style of teaching. I doubt your mom had her style of teaching down the first day she walked in the classroom.

Be prepared to get frustrated a lot in this career.Just keep plugging away.

I still get frustrated especially now that a lot of airlines are starting to hire and I can't even get a call for an interview. :)

Frustrated
 

Shy and not a people person? Me too. But CFI'ing has been one of the most rewarding experiences I've had the pleasure of having in this industry.

Go teach, you'll learn a lot about yourself and even more about flying. It's not a forever job, just a stepping stone to the next level.

Good luck :cool:

Keep with it, I was in the same boat. Take a step back, look at how you are teaching and think "what did I like/no like about how some instructors have taught me in the past". Your greatest tool is other instructors you either admire or hate. You learn how to do it right from those you like, and avoid being like those you didnt. Learning to properly teach was very hard for me. But well, well worth it. If you want to become less shy, learn to teach. You will become more social for sure. Once you get it you wont forget it. And your mom saying you arent a good teacher is very funny/ironic coming FROM a teacher. Way to discourage someone who is trying to learn...(laws of learning anyone?). First rule of flight instruction, dont get mad or criticize at your students. (constructive criticism is good though, if done right). What she should have said is "thats pretty good, however this is how you could improve that...". She may be a certified teacher but that doesn't mean she is good either. How many of us have had horrible flight instructors or teachers in HS and/or college? Learn from them.
What books have you read so far? The laws of learning are very important to understand how people need to learn. You cant just blurt out facts, draw crap on a white board and expect comprehension.(although, pilot mills seem to die trying) I wish when I was in CFI training someone offered me a bit more than "I would say it like this" or "no, thats too complicated, make it more simple" type suggestions. Message me if you need some help, I got time on my hands! Slow corp. flying and instructing is a little slower in the winter with 35 inches of snow in 1.5 days :)

Holy sentence fragment Batman!

You can make it and not instruct I did, it might take sightly longer. I hit every FBO and finally hooked up with a turboprop operator where I could ride in the right seat. "not paid" After I proved myself and gained experience I went to simcom so I could move over and get paid and build PIC time. Strangely after flying the line for 10 yrs I became a instructor at my airline.

How many turboprop operators are out there though for him to do that? I mean if he can find one willing to take him on, then he might do well in going for it, but most likely he'll have to conform like 95% of us did and went the commonplace route. I think he should get his CFI ratings and just shallow it like the rest of us. It's nerve wracking as heck, but it's a challenge that will increase any pilot's skill-level. Once those CFI checkrides are passed and you get your first paycheck instructing, it's such a sweet feeling....

Relax
I was just pointing out there are other ways, but you are right just do like everyone else. I am glad I did not.

Sorry for coming across as hyped.

The OP does have a valid point however. Newly minted commercial pilots should not be teaching other pilots how to fly. They just do not have the necessary experience to make good pilots IMHO.

Frustrated
 

There's a reason why 135 IFR single pilot jobs aren't entry level. Sure, some days are cake, but those 30 knot direct crosswind in icing to circling mins with the circle to the crosswind runway aren't.

Absolutely not.

Safety conscious? Entry level 135 is the absolute opposite of safety conscious. I have over 1,500 hours with my ATP and went into a single pilot, IFR, twin turbo prop job. When you have 250 hours, flying single pilot in Hard IMC, icing, approaches to minimums with lives or cargo onboard… thats a joke! Suck it up, pay your dues and get to your 135, or 121 minimums and then start looking for jobs. We all did it. The hours are there to keep new pilots without the experience from going out and killing themselves and others when flying… and sometimes even with the hours its not enough…

My .02 cents

Is this a haiku thread?

Okay okay, here I go:

center yells at me
forgot to push NAV again
these packs effing suck

Nothing beats a good laugh. Thanks biigd! :D

The 1500hr rule is a great rule! Most would agree too. Being a CFI/II/MEI will make you a better pilot. Period. Don't be one of those guys though that uses students just to "time build" They will know and give a you a hard time. Building time by teaching ground and flight training makes you really understand the aircraft, stalls, short field landings, approaches, holding patterns, ect. Yea 3-5 years teaching may be long, and not pay as much as we would like-but it's a necessary evil. Then you get to go to the regionals for $22-$25 and hr to start!
Anyway, someday you will make CA and be back at the teaching/mentor role to new FO's. Most of the real good Captains I have flown with were all CFI's. It's a long road-and not many shortcuts.

Dude...if your frustrated with the industry now...well your not going to like it later. Go become a doctor or lawyer. Better yet and air conditioning repairman will have a higher income potential then what your getting into. It's a who you know industry and if your a guy that is shy and keeps to thy self...recommendations will not be plenty. I did not have to do the CFI route. I worked line service and got a Learjet job with less then 300 hours, but I was a people person. And being a people person also was the reason I was a Widebody captain before I was 30 years old...You learn more from other pilots talking then reading some book...if you want to make it in aviation it will help greatly to get out of your shell and poke your head up out of your laptop, phone or tablet and strike up a conversation with a stranger...They might be your next chief pilot.

Instructing is not for everyone, some people have the aptitude and people skills, others don't. I did a bit of instructing, not much. Started flying VFR 135 at 500 hours, built time anywhere I could, full time 135 the day I hit 1200. I do currently have a CFI/MEI, but I don't use it often. Got around 8000 hours and 8 types, so it can be done. Just keep plugging away.

Insurance is the answer everyone above was looking for.

Flight instructing, banner towing, traffic watch is a way of paying your dues to get to whatever it is you want to do. This industry is frustrating, but you have to either suck it up and march on, or go home and sit on the couch.

BTW, there are plenty of teachers who can't teach. I found the way to do well at flight instructing is to connect with your students on a personal level. Not just the "why do you want to be a pilot" but "what are your interests?" and trying to find a way to correlate their interests into learning.

Look at flight instructing as a way to break out of being shy. For the most part I'm still a quiet person, but even more so before I started instructing. And in a multi-crew cockpit, nothing is more uncomfortable (other than being asked If I've been saved by Jesus Christ) than being with a shy person. Conversation helps pass the "long" flights pass by.

Extremely good advice...
To add to that, flight instructing is more about learning and managing a cockpit environment with a lesser experienced individual in the control seat than it's about becoming a better pilot. Experience isn't a switch that is flipped the day we start flying corporate/135/121. It's an ongoing process, and learning to work with lesser experienced/more experienced pilots is a big part of that process.

Ok, but even when you have the 135 minimums,
It probably is your first time in those conditions. So
Either way, you are new. At least for piston
Cargo, it should be less time. 500tt. Insurance, is
The main reason.

El pilot,

Dude you are going to have to get over it. Almost every single pilot was in your shoes at one time. Suck it up and do what you need to do, or bow out while you're still new to this industry.

Maybe, but an experienced (instrument) flight instructor will almost always have the edge in learning curve and survivability over someone with 500 hours TT who just flew around the airport doing not much.

One thing that instructing does for you is that it forces you to manage your resources and it quickly grows your confidence level in the airplane since you are the PIC in charge of someone who does not know what he is doing. It also develops your knowledge and study habits to a point of understanding where you will be well positioned to tackle both part 135 and 121 training later in due course.

Even if I myself as a new CFI-I with 500 hours TT could go to work right now for a IFR 135 operator, I would decline. Just the mere process of earning that CFI-I has awakened me to how much I DON'T know about flying. I don't even want to fathom how a circling approach to mins would be like in icing conditions and at night....

You'd better bet that those insurance minimums and gov't regulations set the bar so high. They're that high because experience does really count.

I skipped past alot of the arguing.

However while I wish I had my CFI, I do not. Got hired at 350 hours to a 135 op flying 19 seat turbo props. Almost a 1000 total now. About to move to a caravan, even though I will be VFR limited for a while. Nothing but up from here. It is doable. Keep your head up.

Your have just failed your check ride for lack of judgement...:p

There will always some people that will get to the end without getting their CFI. But just having the cert can open up a lot of doors, and it may be the best way for you to hit a milestone like 500 hours.

As far as not being good at teaching, I would wager to say that most CFI's don't start out as 'good teachers'. But they will do alright if they have a passion for it and truly care about their students. Then, the more they teach the better they get. Now I feel really bad for the students I had back when I was <100 hour CFI, because I realize that I'm so much better now than I was then.

Then there are some people that really aren't cut out to be a CFI. IMO, from CFI's that I met that seem to fall into that category, a lot of them never wanted to CFI and weren't really willing to try to make the best of it, they just ended up being bitter that it was a step they needed to take. That is going to be one of the sad consequences of the ATP-rule, a lot more of those types of people will be stuck instructing and screwing over students.

What you should of told you mom was, "I'm sure you sucked at teaching when you first started too... But that's okay because by the time your ready for the nursing home I'm sure you'll be great at it".

I kid I kid... But seriously... No one is great at teaching when they first start. Everyone reads from their lesson plans or from the book and bores the crap out of their students at first. But instructing is also a learning process for you too. Not only will it force you to hone your people/communications skills but you will be reinforcing all the fundamentals that you will take with you and use the rest of your career. A lot of the guys I fly with now we're never CFIs and many of them are great pilots... But one thing I've noticed about old pilots is that they are very, very good at is knowing the regs. And you will get good at knowing them too as a CFI. And it will save your butt (and probably certificates too) one day.

As far as the 135 stuff being "entry level" your absolutely delusional. I don't fly 135 but I do have a job that demands a similar experience level. Just yesterday morning I had an attitude indicator failure, gear pump failure, and my emergency gear extension handle broke while trying to get the gear down. All at 3am flying in a valley surrounded by 12,000ft peaks. Not a fun time and not something I would of been equipped to deal with at 250 or 300 hours. There is more to flying than being able to control an airplane and follow a checklist. There are lessons to be learned through experience. Which a low time pilot simply doesn't have.

What I don't get with this whole thing is that these guys want to be air transport pilots working for a commercial operator/carrier. I'm not sure if they realize this, but one of the duties of an ATP pilot is to instruct. When you sit in that left seat, you are expected to teach the guy in the right. Sure, everyone is not a "natural" teacher out of the box, but not wanting to do the CFI route because you "can't teach" means you need to give up the entire ATP and airline pilot gig too. I can understand not doing it for other reasons, but "teaching" goes hand in hand with being a pilot. Very few professional pilot jobs out there have zero "teaching" and most of those are the type that you don't spend a career at (unless you messed up somewhere along the way).

Well said, James

GF

My mom knows me best, she knows I'm super "social" to be a teacher in front of eager to learn students. I explained to her it's one on one. She suggest I try to build time some other way like flying cargo, agian I explain I need even more time.

Again maybe you didn't have that experience before you got 1200tt. Either way you are new when they set you loose. I just think flying cargo in a single engine piston shouldn't be so high time requirement. There is VFR friehgt, but those jobs aren't so common.

Thanks. I'm considering pursuing something IT related.

I hate small talk, but I see your point. Networking is important in this field.

I have come to the conclusion that becoming a CFI will be the "Ultimate Test". Instead of trying to runaway from it, which will not improve my confidence, I will have to suck it up and do it.

When I got my commercial cert. I figured i could go and find a job and fly. Thought I knew it all. Ya right... :rolleyes:

CFIing isn't always easy. There are days when I get frustrated with my students and I'm stressed out to the max.

The majority of the time though (and i still do this) i look out my side window and think to myself "I can't believe I get paid to do this" as i smile to myself.

With that being said, I do see your argument. Why am I teaching and not someone with years of experience? I still only know a fraction of what is out there though. And that is part of being a good pilot and CFI - knowing that you are always learning - though sometimes im pretty sure I know more than some of those airline boys out there...

I bet to differ. Just because you dont instruct doesn't mean you wont make a good airline pilot.

I never had a CFI and I was a Checkairmen on the DC-10 and B-777 for my airline. Teaching in the airplane and the Simulator with students that were low time FE transition/upgrade to very high time pilots. I will say this...if you want to fly multiple crew complex airplanes you need to have a personality and communication skills or training will become a grind and unpleasant experience for all involved. I can remember one pilot we had with no social skills...he didn't make it over the long run and nobody enjoyed being in the cockpit with him.

From what I've experienced in the last decade (and I will be corrected by the 500TT CFI know it all on this and other subjects)...it seems like the 'ol experienced pilots listen to what those low time pilots have to say, but those low time pilot know it all's don't listen to the experienced 'ol pilots...thank you Xbox for bad parenting.

I hope that wasn't a jab at me...because I sure as hell don't know everything at 500 hours compared with someone who has been flying for decades and I'll openly admit that without shame.