CFI pay
02-01-2014, 04:43 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 880
Originally Posted by PRS Guitars
Sounds on the low side to me. Bottom line is what do you value your time at?
A few things to consider...
How much of a cut is the school taking? If more than a few dollars per hour, that's a red flag. You don't want to work for a school that is making most of their money off you. They should be making money off of the planes or dues.
You must charge for ground time, including brief/debrief, preflight, ground lessons etc. to do otherwise cheapens the profession.
Insurance coverage, find out what your exposure is. A lot of young CFI's don't care about this because they have nothing. You do have exposure in the event that a former student Morts. Their family will sue you the FBO/school the DE, and the manufacturer even if it is completely frivolous.
I think the best bet is as an independent contractor.
A few things to consider...
How much of a cut is the school taking? If more than a few dollars per hour, that's a red flag. You don't want to work for a school that is making most of their money off you. They should be making money off of the planes or dues.
You must charge for ground time, including brief/debrief, preflight, ground lessons etc. to do otherwise cheapens the profession.
Insurance coverage, find out what your exposure is. A lot of young CFI's don't care about this because they have nothing. You do have exposure in the event that a former student Morts. Their family will sue you the FBO/school the DE, and the manufacturer even if it is completely frivolous.
I think the best bet is as an independent contractor.
At the 141 school i attended several years ago, ground lessons were charged at $76/hour. If you do charge for all that you listed you could easily tack on an additional hour of ground time per flight. At what some of these schools charge for an airplane rental an additional hour of ground for each flight would be prohibitively expensive for many of todays students.
Besides, the majority of instructors working for these large schools only do so for the guaranteed flow of students that will be given to them in order to build up to their 1500 hours, at which point they move on.
Look at the airlines, you don't get paid for any, of the many, preflight and postflight procedures that are required. Should flight instructing be any different?
I do agree with you about being an independent contractor because the rates you can charge will help make up for not charging for each minute of ground time during a flight lesson.
02-01-2014, 04:51 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 132
I charge $50-60 an hour as an independent in SoCal. It's the only way to make a living. I worked my butt off and made a decent living but it took time and dedication to build my business. I could easily bill over 100hrs a month on average (120-140hrs during busy months working 6-7 days a week). Most CFIs are only in it for the short term. If that's your goal then find the busiest school to build flight time and get out once you hit 135 or 121 mins. $20-25 is decent for a busy flight school but unless you are flying 80-100hrs a month I'd look elsewhere.
Last edited by CFI Guy; 02-01-2014 at 04:53 PM. Reason: Typo
02-01-2014, 05:56 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: CFI/II/MEI
Posts: 481
At the university I work at I'm salaried, but the pay only comes out to about $10-11/hour. (kinda depends if I only work 40 hours in a particular week, or more often, its like 50-60). Then I do some part-time instructing at an FBO that pays $22 an hour, but there aren't enough students there to make the jump from the university to there and still pay the bills :/. Then, rarely when I do freelance CFIing I charge $40/hour, since I'm about to hit 1000 dual given, I've been thinking about upping it to $50/hour for some of the more high performance stuff. Usually that's for BFR's, IPC's, etc.
Does anyone carry CFI insurance? I feel like possibly I should, but then again I think the last time I looked into it I don't even make enough from freelance instructing in a year to pay the premium.
Does anyone carry CFI insurance? I feel like possibly I should, but then again I think the last time I looked into it I don't even make enough from freelance instructing in a year to pay the premium.
02-01-2014, 06:12 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: CFI/II/MEI
Posts: 481
Originally Posted by Gjn290
I don't necessarily agree with you on the bolded part. There are many instructors that would take absolute advantage of each of the items you listed. Yes, the instructors would make more money but at the expense of the already financially struggling students.
At the 141 school i attended several years ago, ground lessons were charged at $76/hour. If you do charge for all that you listed you could easily tack on an additional hour of ground time per flight. At what some of these schools charge for an airplane rental an additional hour of ground for each flight would be prohibitively expensive for many of todays students.
....
Look at the airlines, you don't get paid for any, of the many, preflight and postflight procedures that are required. Should flight instructing be any different?
At the 141 school i attended several years ago, ground lessons were charged at $76/hour. If you do charge for all that you listed you could easily tack on an additional hour of ground time per flight. At what some of these schools charge for an airplane rental an additional hour of ground for each flight would be prohibitively expensive for many of todays students.
....
Look at the airlines, you don't get paid for any, of the many, preflight and postflight procedures that are required. Should flight instructing be any different?
02-01-2014, 06:35 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 2,300
Gjn290,
First off, it's not your problem if your student is financially struggling. You will be financially struggling if you don't charge for services. You are doing this to pay your bills and build flight time, not as a charity (though I would encourage some pro bono work now and then). I always preferred financially secure professionals (ie business people, doctors, lawyers) as students.
Secondly, I actually think the instructor is more likely to short change the student's ground lessons and brief/debriefs if they don't charge. The instructor will want to gloss over it because they aren't being paid, it's human nature.
Yes the airlines have a different system of pay, but that doesn't mean all of aviation should be set up that way. You are correct, if you are trying to Build hours as quickly as possible then it won't matter.
Unfortunately, in aviation there is always someone willing to do the job for next to nothing and it even starts at the CFI level.
First off, it's not your problem if your student is financially struggling. You will be financially struggling if you don't charge for services. You are doing this to pay your bills and build flight time, not as a charity (though I would encourage some pro bono work now and then). I always preferred financially secure professionals (ie business people, doctors, lawyers) as students.
Secondly, I actually think the instructor is more likely to short change the student's ground lessons and brief/debriefs if they don't charge. The instructor will want to gloss over it because they aren't being paid, it's human nature.
Yes the airlines have a different system of pay, but that doesn't mean all of aviation should be set up that way. You are correct, if you are trying to Build hours as quickly as possible then it won't matter.
Unfortunately, in aviation there is always someone willing to do the job for next to nothing and it even starts at the CFI level.
02-01-2014, 09:59 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 3,989
Gotta teach pilots early on to take concessions and work for free!
Seriously, you are (or should be) a professional. They are paying for your time. Unethical would be screwing off surfing facebook inside while the student is preflighting, and charging for it. If you are there with the student, being responsible for their safety on a ramp, you should be charging, as well as you should be making it worthwhile, whether it's doing your own safety checks of the airplane, reviewing it's documents, or something else useful. Pre and de-briefs are absolutely worth your time and should be charged, but again, you make it worthwhile. Not, "we did good today, just keep it up", but exactly what was good, how it was achieved, how to maintain it, how to improve, what is coming up next, and so on. This isn't a charity, it's aviation. We all hopefully do things to make the flight training more efficient, but providing adequate instruction and charging fairly for the service you provide come before that.
Seriously, you are (or should be) a professional. They are paying for your time. Unethical would be screwing off surfing facebook inside while the student is preflighting, and charging for it. If you are there with the student, being responsible for their safety on a ramp, you should be charging, as well as you should be making it worthwhile, whether it's doing your own safety checks of the airplane, reviewing it's documents, or something else useful. Pre and de-briefs are absolutely worth your time and should be charged, but again, you make it worthwhile. Not, "we did good today, just keep it up", but exactly what was good, how it was achieved, how to maintain it, how to improve, what is coming up next, and so on. This isn't a charity, it's aviation. We all hopefully do things to make the flight training more efficient, but providing adequate instruction and charging fairly for the service you provide come before that.
02-01-2014, 11:34 PM
#17
On Reserve
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 13
My instructor tacks on .3 ground to every flight we have. I'm ok with it, because we have thorough conversations before and after each flight that usually always exceed 30 minutes. This is common practice at my flight school with the .3. CFII's make $28 per hour, Memphis area.
02-02-2014, 01:05 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 132
When I first started out as an independent instructor I charged only for flight time. If we had an actual ground school lesson I would bill for my time accordingly. However, I noticed a few things aside from making less money.
First, I didn't spend enough time briefing / debriefing each student. This is very vital to a students success because it's important to discuss things while it's fresh in the mind. I always tell students now it's cheaper to pay me to explain it to you on the ground then while the Hobbs is ticking.
Second, students would take advantage of my time and try to get as much "ground school" without actually having to pay me. They would use the brief / debrief time to go over what they read in their book last night or some other topic which has nothing to do with the current lesson. I'm not saying that I wouldn't answer someone's question but it got ridiculous and blatant at times. I was spending 12+ hrs at the airport while lucky to bill for 6hrs with no time to eat between students.
I then decided to tack on 0.2 to each flight for brief/debrief. I figured this would put a few more bucks in my pocket; I wouldn't be resentful towards students for taking up my time and not getting paid. This lessened the blow to my wallet at first but I noticed I was spending even more time with each student and not getting paid. I wanted to really justify that extra little bit of time in fear of the student getting upset and going elsewhere because I was too expensive. God forbid I wanted to be paid like a professional who spent thousands of dollars on training and is exposed to crazy liability (more on that later).
After speaking with another instructor who had been around the block I finally realized I was short-changing myself for years. Not only did I increase my rates but I started billing for "block time". If your appointment starts at noon then I bill you from that time until we shake hands goodbye. Ok, maybe I shave 15 or 20min off if it was a long lesson and I'm feeling nice that day. But here's something else I noticed. People no longer showed up 15-20min late with their lunch in their hand (mind if I eat this real quick?). If you don't want to get billed for preflighting then show up 20-30 min early, call for fuel immediately if needed and don't BS with the other students on the ramp for 20minutes. (Sorry, I just checked the fuel and called the truck. It will be at least 30 minutes until they can fuel us).
Another thing you must do is charge for cancellations less than 24hrs in advance. And that doesn't mean sending me a text message at 11pm when you have an 8am appointment. If you don't set this standard early on with people they will waste your time. Of course things happen so you can choose when to actually enforce it but how many relatives can die, kid got sick, car won't start, etc., to the same person every other lesson?
The liability is crazy if something were to happen to one of your students. Thus far I've been so lucky but I've heard some horror stories lately that make me want to back off teaching primary students at least. Insurance is a must if you own something otherwise don't bother. If you have nothing they can get by suing they won't go after you. If you have insurance you've actually increased your chances of being sued because they know insurance companies will pay out. Jurors have notoriously sided with plaintiffs because it's easy to convince 12 people who know nothing about aviation that you were negligent letting someone fly an aircraft with 60yr old engine technology. No wonder the engine quit, never mind they didn't fuel it after flying 5hrs nonstop.
You are a professional so act like one and get paid for it. Teaching is difficult. I recently started doing some part flying in a jet and that's a cake walk compared to what I've had to put up with over the years being a CFI. As someone else mentioned, flying is a luxury and there are no "poor students". Well actually some are and I give them a little break but most aren't. The same kid who grinded me on my rate one day rolled up the following week in a new Mercedes. The majority of my clientele have money coming in and that's who I choose to work with.
So if you are paid anywhere near $20 an hour teaching at a school I'd take it. It's not BS when they charge more and take a cut. The reality is most schools couldn't even afford to stay in business by making money off the planes themselves. The school is providing the aircraft, advertising for students, renting a building/hangar, insurance, utilities, etc.
Sorry, I know I'm cynical but after giving thousands of hours of instruction you would be too. Also, my neighbor teaches tennis and charges $100/hr. I used to pay my old personal trainer (before I decided to get into aviation and could afford these things) $70/hr.
First, I didn't spend enough time briefing / debriefing each student. This is very vital to a students success because it's important to discuss things while it's fresh in the mind. I always tell students now it's cheaper to pay me to explain it to you on the ground then while the Hobbs is ticking.
Second, students would take advantage of my time and try to get as much "ground school" without actually having to pay me. They would use the brief / debrief time to go over what they read in their book last night or some other topic which has nothing to do with the current lesson. I'm not saying that I wouldn't answer someone's question but it got ridiculous and blatant at times. I was spending 12+ hrs at the airport while lucky to bill for 6hrs with no time to eat between students.
I then decided to tack on 0.2 to each flight for brief/debrief. I figured this would put a few more bucks in my pocket; I wouldn't be resentful towards students for taking up my time and not getting paid. This lessened the blow to my wallet at first but I noticed I was spending even more time with each student and not getting paid. I wanted to really justify that extra little bit of time in fear of the student getting upset and going elsewhere because I was too expensive. God forbid I wanted to be paid like a professional who spent thousands of dollars on training and is exposed to crazy liability (more on that later).
After speaking with another instructor who had been around the block I finally realized I was short-changing myself for years. Not only did I increase my rates but I started billing for "block time". If your appointment starts at noon then I bill you from that time until we shake hands goodbye. Ok, maybe I shave 15 or 20min off if it was a long lesson and I'm feeling nice that day. But here's something else I noticed. People no longer showed up 15-20min late with their lunch in their hand (mind if I eat this real quick?). If you don't want to get billed for preflighting then show up 20-30 min early, call for fuel immediately if needed and don't BS with the other students on the ramp for 20minutes. (Sorry, I just checked the fuel and called the truck. It will be at least 30 minutes until they can fuel us).
Another thing you must do is charge for cancellations less than 24hrs in advance. And that doesn't mean sending me a text message at 11pm when you have an 8am appointment. If you don't set this standard early on with people they will waste your time. Of course things happen so you can choose when to actually enforce it but how many relatives can die, kid got sick, car won't start, etc., to the same person every other lesson?
The liability is crazy if something were to happen to one of your students. Thus far I've been so lucky but I've heard some horror stories lately that make me want to back off teaching primary students at least. Insurance is a must if you own something otherwise don't bother. If you have nothing they can get by suing they won't go after you. If you have insurance you've actually increased your chances of being sued because they know insurance companies will pay out. Jurors have notoriously sided with plaintiffs because it's easy to convince 12 people who know nothing about aviation that you were negligent letting someone fly an aircraft with 60yr old engine technology. No wonder the engine quit, never mind they didn't fuel it after flying 5hrs nonstop.
You are a professional so act like one and get paid for it. Teaching is difficult. I recently started doing some part flying in a jet and that's a cake walk compared to what I've had to put up with over the years being a CFI. As someone else mentioned, flying is a luxury and there are no "poor students". Well actually some are and I give them a little break but most aren't. The same kid who grinded me on my rate one day rolled up the following week in a new Mercedes. The majority of my clientele have money coming in and that's who I choose to work with.
So if you are paid anywhere near $20 an hour teaching at a school I'd take it. It's not BS when they charge more and take a cut. The reality is most schools couldn't even afford to stay in business by making money off the planes themselves. The school is providing the aircraft, advertising for students, renting a building/hangar, insurance, utilities, etc.
Sorry, I know I'm cynical but after giving thousands of hours of instruction you would be too. Also, my neighbor teaches tennis and charges $100/hr. I used to pay my old personal trainer (before I decided to get into aviation and could afford these things) $70/hr.
02-02-2014, 02:40 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 880
Originally Posted by CFI Guy
When I first started out as an independent instructor I charged only for flight time. If we had an actual ground school lesson I would bill for my time accordingly. However, I noticed a few things aside from making less money.
That's the luxury you have as an independent instructor.
First, I didn't spend enough time briefing / debriefing each student. This is very vital to a students success because it's important to discuss things while it's fresh in the mind. I always tell students now it's cheaper to pay me to explain it to you on the ground then while the Hobbs is ticking.
I absolutely agree that it is vital to discuss details of every flight. But where do you draw the line between the student understanding it and the instructor taking money out of their pocket?
Second, students would take advantage of my time and try to get as much "ground school" without actually having to pay me. They would use the brief / debrief time to go over what they read in their book last night or some other topic which has nothing to do with the current lesson. I'm not saying that I wouldn't answer someone's question but it got ridiculous and blatant at times. I was spending 12+ hrs at the airport while lucky to bill for 6hrs with no time to eat between students.
This response is probably going to make people hate me, but so be it. A main point i need to reinforce is this is from my experience in a 141 training environment and having the instructor that would try and charge me for bogus lessons. Being asked questions is part of being a teacher. Deal with it! If it does start to get excessive then tell the student that you are more than happy to sit down and answer more of his questions but he will be charged for ground time. Don't just turn a blind eye to there learning just because you aren't getting paid, again it's part of teaching.
I then decided to tack on 0.2 to each flight for brief/debrief. I figured this would put a few more bucks in my pocket; I wouldn't be resentful towards students for taking up my time and not getting paid. This lessened the blow to my wallet at first but I noticed I was spending even more time with each student and not getting paid. I wanted to really justify that extra little bit of time in fear of the student getting upset and going elsewhere because I was too expensive. God forbid I wanted to be paid like a professional who spent thousands of dollars on training and is exposed to crazy liability (more on that later).
Hey, if you go over that with the students in advance then more power to you! Everyone wants to be treated and paid like a professional. Not saying it isn't possible to make a living as flight instructor, but it's definitely not something that I would recommend to anybody.
After speaking with another instructor who had been around the block I finally realized I was short-changing myself for years. Not only did I increase my rates but I started billing for "block time". If your appointment starts at noon then I bill you from that time until we shake hands goodbye.
There are an instructors that do that. However, as a student I do not feel a responsibility to put up with, or pay for, my instructor taking a 10 minute bathroom break, talking on the phone, or bulls$@%ing with other instructors.
Ok, maybe I shave 15 or 20min off if it was a long lesson and I'm feeling nice that day.
Thank you for being so kind to do that, but most instructors waste more than that during a lesson doing other things not related to your instruction. Is that right?
But here's something else I noticed. People no longer showed up 15-20min late with their lunch in their hand (mind if I eat this real quick?). If you don't want to get billed for preflighting then show up 20-30 min early, call for fuel immediately if needed and don't BS with the other students on the ramp for 20minutes. (Sorry, I just checked the fuel and called the truck. It will be at least 30 minutes until they can fuel us).
I've witnessed instructors do the same thing to their students! Mind if I eat this real quick? Or, "Hey, while you take this practice written exam I'm going to run and grab some food and I'll be back." Hmm... I had that happen to me once before. That really didn't go over well with me.
Another thing you must do is charge for cancellations less than 24hrs in advance.
That is one thing that really frustrated me. While it never personally affected me, what if something comes up and you don't have proof! It does actually happen! It's not cool to no show or charge somebody because they woke up with what feels like a sinus infection. I know I don't go to the doctor for something that I am sure I know what it is. That's just one more thing to explain on your next medical.
The liability is crazy if something were to happen to one of your students. Thus far I've been so lucky but I've heard some horror stories lately that make me want to back off teaching primary students at least. Insurance is a must if you own something otherwise don't bother. If you have nothing they can get by suing they won't go after you. If you have insurance you've actually increased your chances of being sued because they know insurance companies will pay out. Jurors have notoriously sided with plaintiffs because it's easy to convince 12 people who know nothing about aviation that you were negligent letting someone fly an aircraft with 60yr old engine technology. No wonder the engine quit, never mind they didn't fuel it after flying 5hrs nonstop.
I'm sure it is rediculousy expensive, though I've never looked into it. Out of curiosity, why did you decide to instruct for a career? If you get out of CFI'ing then you don't have to worry about carrying your own insurance, unless you choose to.
You are a professional so act like one and get paid for it. Teaching is difficult. I recently started doing some part flying in a jet and that's a cake walk compared to what I've had to put up with over the years being a CFI. As someone else mentioned, flying is a luxury and there are no "poor students". Well actually some are and I give them a little break but most aren't. The same kid who grinded me on my rate one day rolled up the following week in a new Mercedes. The majority of my clientele have money coming in and that's who I choose to work with.
You absolutely are a professional, but teaching comes at a cost. Not many teaching jobs pay what they deserve, but everyone who teaches that know that going into that. Just because this is aviation does that make it different?
There are most certainly "poor students" that try and make this as a career, good for them. As opposed to the doctors and lawyers who do it just because they have nothing else to spend their money on so they decide they want a PPL. However, as a freelance instructor I'm sure you see more of the Doctor and Lawyer type as opposed to the aspiring commercial student.
So if you are paid anywhere near $20 an hour teaching at a school I'd take it. It's not BS when they charge more and take a cut. The reality is most schools couldn't even afford to stay in business by making money off the planes themselves. The school is providing the aircraft, advertising for students, renting a building/hangar, insurance, utilities, etc.
This is one part that you and I agree on.
Sorry, I know I'm cynical but after giving thousands of hours of instruction you would be too. Also, my neighbor teaches tennis and charges $100/hr. Should have been a tennis instructor then.I used to pay my old personal trainer (before I decided to get into aviation and could afford these things) $70/hr.
Thank you for all you do as an instructor, it is appreciated, contrary to what many may thing. Unfortunately, I have had the best of instructors, of whom I credit all me skills to, as well as the worst of instructors, of whom I credit for why I spent so much extra money.
That's the luxury you have as an independent instructor.
First, I didn't spend enough time briefing / debriefing each student. This is very vital to a students success because it's important to discuss things while it's fresh in the mind. I always tell students now it's cheaper to pay me to explain it to you on the ground then while the Hobbs is ticking.
I absolutely agree that it is vital to discuss details of every flight. But where do you draw the line between the student understanding it and the instructor taking money out of their pocket?
Second, students would take advantage of my time and try to get as much "ground school" without actually having to pay me. They would use the brief / debrief time to go over what they read in their book last night or some other topic which has nothing to do with the current lesson. I'm not saying that I wouldn't answer someone's question but it got ridiculous and blatant at times. I was spending 12+ hrs at the airport while lucky to bill for 6hrs with no time to eat between students.
This response is probably going to make people hate me, but so be it. A main point i need to reinforce is this is from my experience in a 141 training environment and having the instructor that would try and charge me for bogus lessons. Being asked questions is part of being a teacher. Deal with it! If it does start to get excessive then tell the student that you are more than happy to sit down and answer more of his questions but he will be charged for ground time. Don't just turn a blind eye to there learning just because you aren't getting paid, again it's part of teaching.
I then decided to tack on 0.2 to each flight for brief/debrief. I figured this would put a few more bucks in my pocket; I wouldn't be resentful towards students for taking up my time and not getting paid. This lessened the blow to my wallet at first but I noticed I was spending even more time with each student and not getting paid. I wanted to really justify that extra little bit of time in fear of the student getting upset and going elsewhere because I was too expensive. God forbid I wanted to be paid like a professional who spent thousands of dollars on training and is exposed to crazy liability (more on that later).
Hey, if you go over that with the students in advance then more power to you! Everyone wants to be treated and paid like a professional. Not saying it isn't possible to make a living as flight instructor, but it's definitely not something that I would recommend to anybody.
After speaking with another instructor who had been around the block I finally realized I was short-changing myself for years. Not only did I increase my rates but I started billing for "block time". If your appointment starts at noon then I bill you from that time until we shake hands goodbye.
There are an instructors that do that. However, as a student I do not feel a responsibility to put up with, or pay for, my instructor taking a 10 minute bathroom break, talking on the phone, or bulls$@%ing with other instructors.
Ok, maybe I shave 15 or 20min off if it was a long lesson and I'm feeling nice that day.
Thank you for being so kind to do that, but most instructors waste more than that during a lesson doing other things not related to your instruction. Is that right?
But here's something else I noticed. People no longer showed up 15-20min late with their lunch in their hand (mind if I eat this real quick?). If you don't want to get billed for preflighting then show up 20-30 min early, call for fuel immediately if needed and don't BS with the other students on the ramp for 20minutes. (Sorry, I just checked the fuel and called the truck. It will be at least 30 minutes until they can fuel us).
I've witnessed instructors do the same thing to their students! Mind if I eat this real quick? Or, "Hey, while you take this practice written exam I'm going to run and grab some food and I'll be back." Hmm... I had that happen to me once before. That really didn't go over well with me.
Another thing you must do is charge for cancellations less than 24hrs in advance.
That is one thing that really frustrated me. While it never personally affected me, what if something comes up and you don't have proof! It does actually happen! It's not cool to no show or charge somebody because they woke up with what feels like a sinus infection. I know I don't go to the doctor for something that I am sure I know what it is. That's just one more thing to explain on your next medical.
The liability is crazy if something were to happen to one of your students. Thus far I've been so lucky but I've heard some horror stories lately that make me want to back off teaching primary students at least. Insurance is a must if you own something otherwise don't bother. If you have nothing they can get by suing they won't go after you. If you have insurance you've actually increased your chances of being sued because they know insurance companies will pay out. Jurors have notoriously sided with plaintiffs because it's easy to convince 12 people who know nothing about aviation that you were negligent letting someone fly an aircraft with 60yr old engine technology. No wonder the engine quit, never mind they didn't fuel it after flying 5hrs nonstop.
I'm sure it is rediculousy expensive, though I've never looked into it. Out of curiosity, why did you decide to instruct for a career? If you get out of CFI'ing then you don't have to worry about carrying your own insurance, unless you choose to.
You are a professional so act like one and get paid for it. Teaching is difficult. I recently started doing some part flying in a jet and that's a cake walk compared to what I've had to put up with over the years being a CFI. As someone else mentioned, flying is a luxury and there are no "poor students". Well actually some are and I give them a little break but most aren't. The same kid who grinded me on my rate one day rolled up the following week in a new Mercedes. The majority of my clientele have money coming in and that's who I choose to work with.
You absolutely are a professional, but teaching comes at a cost. Not many teaching jobs pay what they deserve, but everyone who teaches that know that going into that. Just because this is aviation does that make it different?
There are most certainly "poor students" that try and make this as a career, good for them. As opposed to the doctors and lawyers who do it just because they have nothing else to spend their money on so they decide they want a PPL. However, as a freelance instructor I'm sure you see more of the Doctor and Lawyer type as opposed to the aspiring commercial student.
So if you are paid anywhere near $20 an hour teaching at a school I'd take it. It's not BS when they charge more and take a cut. The reality is most schools couldn't even afford to stay in business by making money off the planes themselves. The school is providing the aircraft, advertising for students, renting a building/hangar, insurance, utilities, etc.
This is one part that you and I agree on.
Sorry, I know I'm cynical but after giving thousands of hours of instruction you would be too. Also, my neighbor teaches tennis and charges $100/hr. Should have been a tennis instructor then.I used to pay my old personal trainer (before I decided to get into aviation and could afford these things) $70/hr.
Thank you for all you do as an instructor, it is appreciated, contrary to what many may thing. Unfortunately, I have had the best of instructors, of whom I credit all me skills to, as well as the worst of instructors, of whom I credit for why I spent so much extra money.
Originally Posted by WBennett
My instructor tacks on .3 ground to every flight we have. I'm ok with it, because we have thorough conversations before and after each flight that usually always exceed 30 minutes. This is common practice at my flight school with the .3. CFII's make $28 per hour, Memphis area.
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes
Gotta teach pilots early on to take concessions and work for free!
I agree with not lowering the bar and if we can raise the bar starting with CFI's than that would be phenomenal! However, maybe the CFI's should take that up with the schools that charge $50/hour for an instructor and only pay the CFI $17/hour, rather than take it out on the student. Most of whom are struggling to make it.
Seriously, you are (or should be) a professional. They are paying for your time. Unethical would be screwing off surfing facebook inside while the student is preflighting, and charging for it. If you are there with the student, being responsible for their safety on a ramp, you should be charging, as well as you should be making it worthwhile, whether it's doing your own safety checks of the airplane, reviewing it's documents, or something else useful. Pre and de-briefs are absolutely worth your time and should be charged, but again, you make it worthwhile. Not, "we did good today, just keep it up", but exactly what was good, how it was achieved, how to maintain it, how to improve, what is coming up next, and so on. This isn't a charity, it's aviation. We all hopefully do things to make the flight training more efficient, but providing adequate instruction and charging fairly for the service you provide come before that.
I agree with not lowering the bar and if we can raise the bar starting with CFI's than that would be phenomenal! However, maybe the CFI's should take that up with the schools that charge $50/hour for an instructor and only pay the CFI $17/hour, rather than take it out on the student. Most of whom are struggling to make it.
Seriously, you are (or should be) a professional. They are paying for your time. Unethical would be screwing off surfing facebook inside while the student is preflighting, and charging for it. If you are there with the student, being responsible for their safety on a ramp, you should be charging, as well as you should be making it worthwhile, whether it's doing your own safety checks of the airplane, reviewing it's documents, or something else useful. Pre and de-briefs are absolutely worth your time and should be charged, but again, you make it worthwhile. Not, "we did good today, just keep it up", but exactly what was good, how it was achieved, how to maintain it, how to improve, what is coming up next, and so on. This isn't a charity, it's aviation. We all hopefully do things to make the flight training more efficient, but providing adequate instruction and charging fairly for the service you provide come before that.
Originally Posted by PRS Guitars
Gjn290,
First off, it's not your problem if your student is financially struggling. You will be financially struggling if you don't charge for services. You are doing this to pay your bills and build flight time, not as a charity (though I would encourage some pro bono work now and then). I always preferred financially secure professionals (ie business people, doctors, lawyers) as students.
You must have had many students who have hundreds of thousands of dollars of financial backing to think that. You didn't get into instructing to become rich, rather to build your time and move on. Most instructors are in the same crappy financial situation as their students. Tough luck, deal with it. Again, why choose to instruct as a career.
Secondly, I actually think the instructor is more likely to short change the student's ground lessons and brief/debriefs if they don't charge. The instructor will want to gloss over it because they aren't being paid, it's human nature.
True, but someone who really cares about interacting and has some pride and integrity would teach at 100%, regardless of what they were earning. Remember the FAA will come looking at you if a student you taught has a mishap.
Yes the airlines have a different system of pay, but that doesn't mean all of aviation should be set up that way. You are correct, if you are trying to Build hours as quickly as possible then it won't matter.
Unfortunately, aviation isn't fair and that's the way it is. Better get used to it now.
Unfortunately, in aviation there is always someone willing to do the job for next to nothing and it even starts at the CFI level.
Isn't that the truth!
First off, it's not your problem if your student is financially struggling. You will be financially struggling if you don't charge for services. You are doing this to pay your bills and build flight time, not as a charity (though I would encourage some pro bono work now and then). I always preferred financially secure professionals (ie business people, doctors, lawyers) as students.
You must have had many students who have hundreds of thousands of dollars of financial backing to think that. You didn't get into instructing to become rich, rather to build your time and move on. Most instructors are in the same crappy financial situation as their students. Tough luck, deal with it. Again, why choose to instruct as a career.
Secondly, I actually think the instructor is more likely to short change the student's ground lessons and brief/debriefs if they don't charge. The instructor will want to gloss over it because they aren't being paid, it's human nature.
True, but someone who really cares about interacting and has some pride and integrity would teach at 100%, regardless of what they were earning. Remember the FAA will come looking at you if a student you taught has a mishap.
Yes the airlines have a different system of pay, but that doesn't mean all of aviation should be set up that way. You are correct, if you are trying to Build hours as quickly as possible then it won't matter.
Unfortunately, aviation isn't fair and that's the way it is. Better get used to it now.
Unfortunately, in aviation there is always someone willing to do the job for next to nothing and it even starts at the CFI level.
Isn't that the truth!
Originally Posted by Bellanca
I kinda see what you're saying. But I'm not going to skip charging for ground at all. If discuss airspace for 20-30 min I'm probably going to add .3-.5 ground to the flight or If I discuss XC planning for 1.0 before we go, I'm charging for that. However, I don't charge for every minute I'm with the student, like tying down the plane or every last minute of pre flight prep. It kinda comes down to the fact that I'm not going to spend $5ish bucks in gas to get to the airport, take at least 3 hours out of my day to only net like $10-12 for a .8-1.0 hour flight.
02-02-2014, 07:15 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 4,600
And to anyone looking at the CFI route, I would HIGHLY recommend CFI insurance. I had a buddy whose student brushed the wingtip of the 172 they were taxiing up against the wingtip of another 172. Only broke the strobe one ONE of the Cessnas and the light housing on the other. School stuck him with a $1000 bill which he had to pay back. Me? I personally wouldn't have paid a penny and told them to shove it because that's what te school has insurance for. But he wasn't in a position to do so. So keep little things like that in mind.
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