For every measure there a countermeasure.

Where's the thread entitled Does anyone know who the just fog a mirror flt docs are?

The girlfriend. She will just gently nudge you to break the snoring. The wife will punch hard. :)

I think they could probably get away with if your BMI is >= 25 you get tested for body fat and that there is a body fat % where your medical is lost or probation.

But, your health as it relates to weight (BMI) has nothing to do with what the FAA is up to here. It's not about weight.

Have we gotten to the point of the thread yet where everyone over 35 BMI claims to be an Olympic weight lifter?

BMI may just be the vehicle to rid the US airline industry of old grumpy frumpy cat ranchers and burt reynolds gussetted FA's:D

Maybe then we can compete with foreign carriers on service!

One can only hope they use it on FA's too, have you seen the size of necks on some of them?

If anyone is interested in looking at a nutritional system to knock off a few pounds and get your numbers down please PM me. I've lost 20 pounds this past year on it and it's very convenient to travel with. Just here to help and support. I know it's easy to just say stop eating the junk and exercise more and there is a way to add some better nutrition too without breaking the bank on expensive airport salads.

Given what I've seen of Singapore Airlines, we'll never get there. :D

What does stink now that I think about it was I flew with two pilots over the last month, both single seat fighter guys at one point in their lives. Both are > 63 years old. One was overweight yet awesome in every aspect of airline Captaining, the other was the exact opposite in every single way. The first would be removed on a BMI test the second wouldn't, yet the skinny one required the temp in the cockpit to be 85. I think he had circulation issues. But that's not tested.

Again the FAA isn't after you having a health weight, that's not even a part of this OSA thing.

Actually, what a sales-based troll typically does is show up out of the blue with a new account and post misinformation, half-truths and links to a website riddled with more self-serving sales talk based on scare tactics and innuendo.

The sales pitch, scare tactics and strained interpretations all lead the reader to a single career-saving solution: buy what the troll is selling.

Sound familiar?

Here's my issue with this.

Has ther ever been a documented case where OSA has been linked to a incident.

Fatigue? Yes I'm sure, but was OSA identified as the culprit? If no, then why focus on this? Aren't there more important health issues to tackle?

I could see a focus on cardiac issues or focus on high blood pressure, but it seems someone at the FAA had a pilot with OSA boning his wife.

Or someone's in a boning relationship with someone selling an app?

That chart is cool. I'm 6'5", and apparently 156 is in the "normal" range. A good fart would knock me off my feet at 156

Wasn't there a Mesa Go! flight that went well beyond the islands of Hawaii before the pilots finally turned back?

Yeah.....that had nothing to do with the horrible scheduling rules Mesa had.

And again: Did this have anything to do with a sleep disorder?

Having once been at Mesa, I'd venture a guess that the fatigue displayed in this incident had more to do with a crappy hotel and/or a fatigue-inducing schedule.

My current employer is showing zero concern with sleep patterns and circadian rhythm. We commonly have pairings with an 0700 show, one 2:30 leg, 12 hours of daytime rest followed by a 4 hour red eye followed by another 12 hours rest with a late afternoon show and 2 legs ending at 2200. 10 hours 1 minute on the ground followed by an early morning show on Day 4 with 3 legs and 7:30 flight time.

It's all legal per Part 117. Early morning, sleep in the day, red eye, sleep in the morning, late evening flying, short night, early morning, long Day 4.

Throw in a few nights in the lowest-cost-bidder hotels just to add to the fun. And if I'm fatigued on Day 4 it's obvious that I must have a sleep disorder.

It's easier and less expensive for airline management in concert with a willing FAA to blame the pilots than it is to actually fix the real problem.

I just got tested and have moderate sleep apnea. I am 6' and under 180 but my dad and brother were diagnosed years ago so I always suspected I had issues. I've never had problems staying awake in the cockpit but have known most my life that I never slept well. My wife would hold my nose to stop my snoring.

Been on the CPAP 10 days now and already notice a remarkable increase in my overall daily energy.

ALPA aero med is working my issue and has sent me all the info I need to get cleared. Will let you know how long it takes me to get back on the flying schedule.

Believe this will be one the best health decisions I've been faced with for my overall well being.

Well this thread is more about bashing fatties. You seem fit at your height and weight. Thanks for ruining our fun. All kidding aside, I hope your condition improves.

Don't anyone fall for the OP's app or the information provided on his website link. They are trolling for pilot dollars based on fear and misinformation while providing just enough truth to worry some.

The website and his posts imply to find out your OSA status before you visit your AME and you'll fall into spec sheet A territory and thus, not have any time off. Wrong. The moment you are notified of having OSA via a sleep assessment, you're grounded, until you follow the FAA procedures. Thus, you can't visit them first to determine OSA status, get it "fixed", and then on your medical tell the FAA you're good to go! If anyone did this, they'd be in SERIOUS hot water as they would have flown after being notified of an FAA disabling condition before receiving FAA approval to return to flying.

Do yourself a favor and read the information in the link I posted in post 2. It is THE same guide the AME has received from the FAA.

This is his website's information:
Decision B- Decide to be evaluated and possibly treated for OSA prior to the AME exam. Spec Sheet A will be issued and in this case as long as the sleep study has been performed prior to presenting to the AME , a medical certificate will be issues with the condition that all appropriate information pertaining to the diagnosis and treatment be provided within 90 days of the AME evaluation. Thus the course of action is predetermined, no risk exists of having lapses in medical certificate validity.

Either way The Fly-in Fly-out program, takes the uncertainty out of the entire process. From start to completion of the SI, you will be handled by experts in the process of SI for pilots with sleep apnea. In most cases no time off work will be required . The process of diagnosis, treatment and documentation of effective compliance is consolidated in a very short time span, making the risk and uncertainty of successful special issuance very low.

The "doc's" Decision B is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG...don't fall into the trap this self-serving poster has provided. Your medical WILL be impacted if you have a sleep study that documents OSA and you don't ground yourself right away. And, would you really trust them providing information for SI (Special Issuance) when their information is rife with errors already?

I am not a health nut--challenged myself over the years with several marathons and finished a half ironman 2 years ago. But I still try to do weekly cardio and bike rides so my weight is not causing my issue. I could probably solve my apnea with a dental device but the way I read the FAA guidance is that only mild sleep apnea can be treated with this. For now I have to comply with CPAP usage and get my doctor to sign off it.

And concur with prior posts--read the latest literature...all we heard about eggs, butter, animal fats, etc the past few decades has been re-evaluated.

I experience those same symptoms after viewing a horror flick and someone or something is chasing me in my dreams!

So the solution to OSA is sleeping alone
Got it
Pay for them to leave
It's always cheaper :D

The problem with that is you may have a BMI problem if the hookers won't even talk to you:p

Probably not true......just have to pay more.

Precisely! Domestic flying fatigue could be cut in half within the first month of implementing AM only or PM only or Redeye only trips, no mixing. Virtually every sleep study shows you need x number of hours sleep at the same relative time of day to keep your body alert and functioning well. Most of the mishmash trips offered now go 180 degrees against that. Then people scratch their heads wondering why pilots are getting sick, fat and fatigued. Btw, screwing with your circadian rhythm also causes your body to release increased cortisol leading to more fat storage among other things.

Does anybody know if ALPA is/has or is going to push for more consistent circadian agreeable schedules? I know that companies will say they can't afford it and will go out of business when in fact they would just need to hire 10% more pilots and would still be minting money. This is a serious issue that affects every pilot, during their career and also after they retire when much of the damage cannot be undone.

I don't think the average pilot realizes how unhealthy the trip described that you replied about is. All-nighters are for college kids to sporadically try when they cram for exams. It's not supposed to be how the human body operates on a regular long-term basis.

It always amazes me that there are also pax who purchase a ticket on a redeye such as LAS-MSP/ORD...3 hours flight time or even less!

Just a complete lack of respect for their own body's alleged need for sleep I guess (the passenger on a 3hr redeye I mean...not a junior pilot stuck with flying one).

This is an important topic.

However, I think it's a topic that doesn't belong here, not in the way it was started, anyway:

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Not a big deal. My AME a week ago "Do you snore or have daytime drowsiness?" Me "No". Thats it.

Again it depends on your body fat, not just your bmi.

If you have a high Bmi but it's all muscle then you may not have to pay hookers that much more.

In fact, with a high Bmi due to a lot of muscle you may not have to pay for sex at all.

High bmi = free sex

That schedule sounds terrible.
All problems would be solved fixing that 4 day with something consistent!
The Mesa crew both had a day off prior. Capt was determined to have a sleep disorder, not sure about the much younger FO. But one flight almost a decade ago should not get the FAA going where they are with this!
It wasn't crappy hotels though. They were flying out of their base.

Nice to know at 6'4" and 205 I'm just into the overweight category?
And at 150 something I'd be healthy, yet probably dead.

I'm 6'4"/265#

I'm morbidly obese according to the FAA.

Yet I have normal blood pressure and ran a 19 minute 5k two days ago.

Still cheaper.......:eek:

I fell asleep 3 times reading this thread!!

That is an awesome time for a 5K.

I didn't say I've been able to walk since.

That's about max speed for my morbidly obese behind.

Just imagine if you were in the normal range, your slinky body with no muscle on it could have caught a tail wind and flown across the finish line....oh how I hate this BMI crap.
I played racquetball for 5.5 hours today yet somehow I'm still obese according to the chart....pure crap.

I have pictures of me 20+ yrs. ago when I was a 180 lb. surviving on Flight Instructor pay. I was sickly skinny, yet that is the high range of my BMI according to the chart.

Perhaps they thought you were reporting the combined height and weight of two morbidly obese dwarves. :D

No worries. As long as your BMI is low you're good. :D





until they come for us all.

Now that there was funny!!


...and BTW, for all those wanting ALPA to demand sleep friendly trips, be careful what you wish for. A lot of us commuters search the bid package for trips that are commutable on both sides. That generally means a late sign in and and early-ish sign out. In order to do that, somewhere you have to switch from night flying to day flying.

ALPA will get right that.....safety first!

The information that I posted is actually factual and based on information available to anyone at: Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners
Though mostly black and white, there are some ambiguities which I have taken the time to research and clarify with the FAA. The fact remains that this is not going to go away, many unsuspecting pilots will get caught in the cross-hairs, the qualifications for "high risk of OSA" may not be as difficult to meet as you once thought (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...stionnaire.pdf), and many pilots will be at risk for a temporary lapse in the ability to fly. There are basically 2 options: 1) Roll the dice and hope for the best at your AME exam (to land in Group 3 or 4) and go through the motions as they have laid out if not, 2) proactively and truthfully screen yourself (using the same tools provided to the AME), make a plan for seeking diagnosis and treatment if indicated by the risk assessment, and find a way to do it in the least disruptive way possible to minimize down time. That being said, I will under no circumstance advise a pilot to continue flying once a true diagnosis (via sleep study) is found and prior to effective treatment. I will, however, inform pilots that there are many ways to get from point A (risk evaluation) to point B (treatment) and by doing a little research, finding a physician with knowledge and experience in this unique circumstance, and taking control of the potential problem before it becomes an actual problem; the process can be far less frustrating, smoother, more efficient, and with little to no disruption in the ability to fly.