Yes.

But, and this is my guess and I only play a doctor on the internets, OKC could always come behind them and say no one is required based on BMI and neck size. Actually, I need to go back and read the OPs link, there was a guide for AMEs I believe there.

My other thought is one smart sleep study place will learn that it is lucrative to find few to no pilots have OSA.

But I've never been to one of these places but it seems to me that people that go there want to be found with OSA so they can get the machines? Is that a logical assumption or am I off? Because if it was the case then they'd probably default to positive for OSA now please pay this referral? Or is that just a dentist thing?

FWIW, if the solution was wear a dental implant and out the door you go. I wouldn't lose much more sleep over this and that would be good because I can't stay awake anymore during the day. But I'd rather see simple solutions then surgeries and loss of medical. But my guess is some folks in the FAA don't get kickbacks if the solution is simple. :D There I said it.

IIRC dental implants would not make the FAA happy. Same thing for a t-shirt with a tennis ball woven into the back (to keep you from sleeping on your back).

73M - OSA + FAA survivor.

Could be effective. I've flown with a few pilots that use their wardrobe to prevent them from sleeping on females.

You forgot numbers 3 and 4 (:rolleyes:) according to one of the links at the beginning of this thread.................being male and over 50. Of course number 4 may not apply to you yet!:)

Denny

Two mesa pilots in a CRJ fell asleep, overshot one of the Hawaiian islands, headed out to sea and almost flamed out before they made it back to land. CA had OSA for sure, I believe that incident was the catalyst although the post-colgan fatigue studies probably played a role.

Also any of a number of fatigue-involved accidents might have been affected in the past. It's a reasonable suspicion, and can't be disproved.

The Captain had OSA but the FO did not, so the FO shouldn't have been wide awake. Unless there are more reasons than OSA that would cause a pilot to fall asleep in the cockpit?

There was also an article on this but according to it the NTSB has not found it to be a cause of any accident. The pilots who have had known OSA and had accidents had accidents that had nothing to do with falling asleep. http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/pilo...l#.VQ2st454p_M

Also from the FAA:

So basically 1/3 of the < 30 BMI crowd have OSA and they're going to want to get them tested and treated according to the former Chief Surgeon Fred Tilton.

http://cdn.avweb.com/media/newspics/...ton_md_fas.gif

I think the ATA will get this shutdown at that point. :D

catch 22, must keep the medical profession properly paid for stupidity.

Slow clap..

Rick forgot to bid already poked a giant hole in your argument. But I gotta ask, are you just playing devil's advocate? Or do you actually believe we need stricter medical standards in this profession? If it's the latter what would make you feel that would increase safety? And I'd like examples of where tougher medical standards would have prevented an accident.

Where is my freaking union on this??? They seem to be MIA. I would expect a call to action and then some. Anyone know what the hangup is?

Pipe

Could be waiting on some sort of actual proposal or something like that. I dunno. I haven't even seen any kind of notice for proposed rule making out there. Just a vague guideline for AMEs.

Why don't you call your rep rather than posing the question here? I am sure the answer you would get would be far more useful.

If his reps are anything like mine, they're far too busy trying to keep up with their MEC administration's lack of transparency and accountability to be able to keep tabs on the FAA.

And in any case, isn't that why we send an obscene amount of money out of our pilot group up to the bloated bureaucracy at national? So they can publicly advocate for us or something like that. I dunno.

The problem with the FAA's logic here is that both pilots fell asleep, but only one had OSA. Why'd the OTHER one fall asleep, and why isn't this the cause of both of them falling asleep?

I think we all know the answer - sucko Mesa schedules had them living in perpetual fatigue. But OSA makes a convenient scapegoat.

If I were your rep, and you talked to me in real life like you talk about them on here I'd probably have you on ignore anyway. You act like a three year old, not a grown man.

Unbelivable
 

Unbelievable !!!!!


I am not a great lover of the FAA but for once that they are trying to do something that make sense all those out of shape Pilots are complaining.

1: A very small percentage of obese people are there by design, they just inflicted this upon themself.
2: The poor guy who is color blind did not inflicted this on himself, but is never the less banned from flying by the FAA.
3: The FAA is doing a favor to those way overweigh Pilot on giving them a reality check, isn’t it time to do something about it you guy’s do you want to keep been a threat to yourself and the public you are flying?

So for my two cent you larger people there is a very simple thing.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKs0oEIVOck

You will be doing yourself a favor, not to mention your passengers and society.

Good luck see you all on the treadmill !!!!

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-con...occer-miss.gif

You've evidently missed the conversation but don't worry there is still time to catch up.

I hate to interrupt this fatty bashing party.........but if your over 50, male with a 17" or greater circumference neck that puts you into a high risk category as well......potentially subject to a sleep study.

The bottom line is how each individual AME will handle which group to put you in. The way I read it......BMI alone will not trigger a sleep study.

Good luck and see you when you are 50 and older. You think this is good? If think this is a good thing, then I suggest the FAA start looking harder at anyone over 55. Why not? I mean, its just not that you snore or have a few extra pounds, how about your mentality? Do you drink at all? Do you love your kids? Have you ever been divorced? Lets get the standards started now so we all know what to expect for our career.

I just hope health wise, you don't get diabetes, break a leg, or get a back issue or cancer that happens to people. Good luck to you and your convictions. I know a lot of thin guys that have passed away for things that were beyond their control and a lot of over weight guys that keep on going. Its pure luck on longevity sometimes and NOT any issue of being able to perform your job.

I think I saw the number 50,000 pilots in ALPA now... and one AME quoted in an earlier article posted here said he thinks 90% of us have OSA. That's 45,000 pilots who have OSA.

So... where are all the accidents caused by OSA? I mean, we fly what, about 10,000 flights a day, in the USA alone? If 90% of these flights are being operated by pilots with OSA, there should be pilots sleeping and overshooting airports all over the country right now! :eek:

So... where are they?

You know what really causes fatigue? CRAPPY SCHEDULES! And the FAA's fix was... allow us to fly MORE, going from 8 hours per day to 9!

Now, I admit, getting the FAR changed to a shorter duty day did make much more sense, because that is what really causes fatigue, OSA or not, so there was an improvement there, but going to 9 hour flying was just stupid and a concession traded to the airline managements for the increased layovers.

Lack of Sleep Opportunity is what causes pilots to fall asleep at the wheel, much more than OSA. And I seriously doubt if 90% of us suffer from it!:rolleyes:. But that makes a good story and will sell a lot of machines and gadgets.

I agree about the charts, but I haven't seen one since I left the Air Force about 20 years ago, anyone got one they can post?

I've always been 'heavy' for my height, just under the Air Force Fatty program limits, but I also spend a lot of time in the gym on every layover. When I'm at home, I ride my bike 20-40 miles a day, eat my oatmeal for breakfast, salad for lunch and fish or chicken for dinner. I rarely eat any red meat, yet I'll bet my BMI is close to fatty town, because as you said, muscle weighs more than fat...oh, and I like my beer!

Now, shall we talk about what really causes fatigue?

How about trips that sign in at night for an all nighter, to try to sleep in a motel where the maids are knocking on your door all day, or vacuuming the room next door, or above you? Or how about a trip that signs in at 5am, and your kids kept you up all night with the flu? :rolleyes:

I'm going out to ride my bike right now...I'll probably be hit by a 90+yr. old still driving a car. If the NTSB really wants to save lives, let them start by taking away driving licenses for 90+yr. olds!

Well, you do live in a state where the average age is deceased. ;)

Well I cheated death again, so you guys aren't moving up a number today! :D

My grandpa turned 95 last month. DMV renewed his license for 5 years.

Is he in Lake Placid or Sebring? :eek: :D

When people retire, they move to Fort Myers, but their parents live in Sebring! :D

California. Everyone can have a license here.

Louisiana. They throw licenses from Mardi Gras floats. :rolleyes:

My grandfather-in-law had dementia with a healthy dose of stubborness. He was mad nobody allowed him to drive and didn't understand the fuss partly because he couldn't remember crashing the golf cart and wrecking everything around the house. He really was a disaster and dangerous and refused to believe he was old.

the aarp sent a letter about renewing his drivers license in the mail automatically. Idiots. A 7 year old blindfolded with his kid sister telling him where to go would've been safer. Thankfully the letter was trashed.

I need to find the picture of an elderly man's nice new Buick with shower safety handle bars screwed all around the skin of the car. Crooked no less.

Post #103 for the thread impaired. Fatties are the start. The plan is to test 100% of pilots and expect 90% of them to 'suffer' from OSA. So not only will YOU eventually be shelling out money to be tested for OSA, but there will be a 90% chance that they'll find that YOU 'suffer' from OSA.

But hey, do Yourself a favor, not to mention your passengers and society, and go get tested for OSA early. Because they'll eventually test you too.

Oh.....it's only the beginning. I'm sure healthy long-haul truck drivers will be next.

In 2008, the preliminary national crash facts were as follows: 123,918 large trucks and 13,263 buses involved in non-fatal crashes
49,084 large trucks and 7,123 buses involved in injury crashes
73,047 injuries in crashes involving large trucks and 16,760 injuries in crashes involving buses
74,834 large trucks and 6,140 buses involved in tow-away crashes
2,609 large trucks and 11 buses involved in hazmat (HM) placard crashes



But hey......let's start with those rich airline pilots first because there have been zero accidents attributed to OSA.

Actually, they and train drivers have been evaluated for OSA for some time due to fatigue related accidents.

GF

Really?

I have a Class A CDL with Hazmat, Tank, Double/Triple, etc.

Not once been tested for OSA.

Never even mentioned.

I'm shooting from the hip but I think that's where this whole thing got shot down by Congress. It was to be imposed by the DOT on pilots, truckers, etc, without going through the normal rulemaking process. Congress shot that down and Obama signed an HR that required the rulemaking process to be followed but it was oriented around truck driving. I am not certain of what has transpired for truckers but it's now evidently back for pilots.

As it pertains to pilots I believe AOPA led the charge against it. I would have to keyword search to see if ALPA said anything.

When it came to truckers they said at $2200 multiplied by the number of truckers that would have to be tested that the cost would be $1B. To some that's a cost. To others that's pure revenue.

^^^^^ This.

First Officer Fatty will be the first tested for OSA. He will be sent off for a sleep study, if he is found clear of OSA then First Officer Fatty keeps his medical and keeps on flying.

Captain Cross Fit will eventually be told he needs to be tested for OSA despite never having issues with fatigue while flying. He will be sent off for a sleep study and when found to have OSA, due to one of a plethora of non weight related OSA causes, he will lose his medical.

First Officer Fatty keeps flying and eating airport food while Captain Cross Fit is free to work out more, eat right, and wait to complete FAA approved treatment and burn through his sick time and disability. Because this had nothing to do with BMI and being fit but rather it has everything to do with having OSA.

That's how I read the literature put out by the FAA. Which I still don't understand what I am supposed to do, I am taller than the tallest height on the FAA approved BMI chart. I guess I am exempt since this is the FAA and the big picture < paperwork. :D




Yes I mentioned Cross Fit. I know the #1 rule about Cross Fit is you ALWAYS talk about Cross Fit. So I kept the rule.

Not to mention those surgeries are incredibly invasive and massively ineffective. Pilot shortage force multiplied by a run on the sick banks and a huge spike in disability getting paid all the way to age 65.000000000 to snore (or not) at home. Bring it fools.

I did a bit more digging on the FAA's diagnosis criteria. 5 AHIs per hour. That's considered mild apnea, but yes, it's likely that a very high percentage of pilots will be 'diagnosed' with OSA.

The science behind OSA is shaky at best; most reports you read will admit something along the lines of 'we can't prove anything, but we think it's a terrible affliction' or similar verbiage. This is simply a moneymaker for 'medical' vultures.

Do I have OSA? How the heck would I know? I do know as a cargo pilot flying a schedule that is from 10pm until 5am most nights is hard. If you come back from an International trip, it can take a day or two to get back in cycle with your sleep schedule. So what is rested? I know I sleep better at home than on the road, unless I have company. That's a joke. There are times of the day when I get tired, usually around 5pm my time. and that's circadian rhythm, a natural cycle when your body gets sleepy. But to try to impose a sleep apnea restriction and a sleep study is total BS.

My guess is that the next study, test, will be against the super skinny triathlon guys. I hope no one has a low heart beat or low blood pressure, you may be susceptible to scrutiny. :)

I thought ALPA was fighting this. What happened?

I think anyone with a kid younger than 5 in the home should lose his medical too. There is no way he can get enough sleep to be flying.