Another pay comparison for new hires
 

I found this gem while browsing through the “majors” section. Its the first post on page 8 of the thread titled “end of year salary”.

It does say he was on captain pay for 3 months, but the key is he was still an FO for the other 9 months. All while still averaging 17-18 days off.

I’m on the 5 year Captain scale at PSA. I’m a lineholder and pick up SDO and this guy still has me beat. If you take away his per diem he’s at $85,683. To make that amount on 5 year captain pay at PSA... you’ll be at 93.6 hours per month. Even if you pick up SDO here at PSA thats only going to give you around 14 days off. 15 if youre lucky. When the tier system goes into effect in April you’ll only be getting around 12-14 days off to make that much at PSA.

So basically this Endeavor FIRST OFFICER is able to make as much as a 5 year line holding captain at PSA that works 4-6 days more per month. I’m about a year from flowing so I plan on sticking it out, but at least on the bright side... I wont be taking a pay cut when I flow.

For comparison, at PSA to get 17-18 days off you’ll have to SAP down to 65 or 70 hours per month. To be generous ill say 70. Even on 5 year captain pay that comes to $64,083. Thats more than $20k LESS than an Endeavor FO with the same days off.

Endeavor might not be hiring right now, but Republic, Skywest, and ExpressJet with their bonuses are all in the same ballpark.

the only things worse than the captain pay scales are the contract and the signing of concessionary LOAs . everyone else is going up and we are going down. its quite frustrating.

This.

For everyone coming here thinking pay raises are just around the corner... think again. The pay rumors have been going around for about a year, but we just had a pilot wide conference call a few weeks ago and it sounded like pay raises weren’t even being discussed. We actually already had some of the worst premium pay amongst the regionals and we just signed in a REDUCTION to that.

I’d say more than half of the FOs I’ve flown with have said they only came here for SAP and because they figured pay raises were a sure thing based on the rumors. Now they wished they would have went somewhere else, but are stuck with the bonuses they’d have to pay back.

Now THERE is someone struggling to find a silver lining in a cloud.

Seriously, flow programs are looking more and more like a VERY double-edged sword, designed to keep people at places with sort if bottom feeder payscales.

I’m trying lol.

Man, give it a rest. Endeavor isn’t even hiring right now..... And if one goes there, they are looking at eternal reserve. One isn’t going to make that kind of money unless they are a line holder there. Open time is none existent.....

Grass isn’t always green on the other side.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you want to see something really fun check out the open time at places like Skywest, Air Whiskey, or Republic. Over there a 20 hour four day is a crap trip, and 24-25 hour four days are a dime a dozen.

It's no wonder my friend who is a bypassing First Officer (because they don't need to force upgrades) at Skywest is making easily more than me as a reserve Captain at PSA.

You don't think a competitor's FO making more than a 5 year Captain and having a better schedule is a problem ?

Nobody is saying to burn the place down but for Christmas sake that just isn't right.

People thinking of coming here need to know this stuff. If you don't want to keep potential candidates informed of the state of the union - fine. Just stay out of it period then.

I guess you are missing my point, if you are posting this to encourage folks to consider Endeavor, let me remind you.

-They aren’t hiring at the moment
-You get in now, it will be awhile before you see better schedules since most of that will be Reserve in NYC.
-Ther co-domincile in New York has decreased their QOL. Especially on reserve...Folks are over there *****ing....

Again, the grass isn’t always greener...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you read my entire post you’ll see that I mentioned Endeavor isn’t hiring, but Republic, ExpressJet, and Skywest are hiring. Their pay with their bonuses (that captains get also) put them in the same ballpark as Endeavor.

And of course you can’t make that kind of money on reserve. In the post I quoted it says he’s on year 2 and 3. But since you brought it up, I would argue that reserve at PSA isn’t much shorter. We’re almost to 1900 pilots with only 135 airplanes. I don’t have the exact number but we’re around 900 total lines (450 for each seat). That means about half of our pilot group is on reserve. Almost everyone is fat on pilots right now so I would say time on reserve is going to be within a few months of each other no matter where you go, with maybe the exception of expressjet.

I will say you make a decent point about the grass isn’t always greener, and Endeavor has a co-domicile in NYC. Although, I would also argue if you live in NYC you probably don’t care, and if you commute I would guess a vast majority of pilots would rather be able to one leg it to NYC compared to a 2 leg commute to one of our outstation bases even if our pay was EQUAL let alone a $40k difference. By your argument maybe I shouldn’t flow to American since most of the new hires are being sent to NYC for their first few months and they have to cover all 3 airports as well. If $40k isn’t worth it to you then what is worth it to you? The only valid argument is if you currently live in one of PSA’s bases and even then $40k is a lot to pass up.

It sounds like you’re completely fine with having some of the lowest pay in the industry since we don’t have an NYC base and everything else is just ok. Maybe that’s why we keep signing concessionary LOAs. We’re filling classes so I guess it’s ok to accept lower pay.

The only way to get any improvements here is for people to know what else is out there. Most of the cadets and RTPs I fly with had no idea what the other airlines are offering because all their information comes from our recruiters. I have several former students that are attending Purdue and they say PSA is the only airline that has recruiters show up on a regular basis. Hmmm, I wonder why......

I hate to knock down positive vibes. I prefer positivity over negativity. But in this case, if everyone at PSA had your attitude we’d be filling classes for eternity and we’d never see any improvements. I guess you’re ok with making less, but I’m not.

Another silver lining is that when the tier system gets implemented in April I won’t be incentivized to pick up extra flying anymore so I’ll enjoy more days home.

No regional comes close to endeavor after the second year. The second year 9e 401k match at 12% ends the comparison.

Not to stir the pot at all but between new hire bonuses and premium pay I hit 90,000+ this year at ZW as an FO. 100,000+ if you include per diem. Granted, I was averaging 7 days off a month and 125 hours of credit so QOL was non existent, but the money is there if that’s what you’re after.

Negative Ghostrider, you have missed the point. The point is to know what you actually get here at PSA vs our competitors.

Have you looked at the retirement numbers lately...

Minus NYC that's true pretty much anywhere and for various reasons for some people NYC might be a better option than a podunk outstation with a line or reserve that starts at 0430.
Give someone a gold brick they'll ***** about how heavy it is...
No, but the money is. I come to work to make money. Liking my job is just a side benefit. A benefit that Management has manipulated in their favor for far too long. If people would put their desire to be properly compensated above their desire "to fly" it would be a totally different landscape out there. Wish in one hand, **** in the other I reckon... Happy New Year.

Just saying, there’s the door man.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Who is ZW?

Air Wisconsin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Right back at ya there ma'am.

unless my info is bad (its a strong possibility) 9E year 2 match is 3%. it takes 20 years to get to 12.5% (8% year 11-19)

If true ,Thanks for the correction.

What's this "tier system" y'all are referring to? If it's what I think it is, we have it over at SkyWest and it's the most cucked system ever. You will rarely see a 150% trip there again, especially after we got reserve proffering.

Under the old system, which remains in effect until the changes are implemented, pilots could drop down to 65 hours of credit monthly, then pick up from open time for a minimum of 125% for every hour of credit above 65.

Under the new system, that is pending implementation, every pilot will only get paid straight time for hours flown between 65 and 75, then 125% for 75-85 hours, and 150% for hours above 85. It will benefit those who fly a lot, and never work the system, and further deincentivize those who work 65 hours a month from flying more.

What did you guys get in return for implementing a tier system that lowers your already low pay?

Take a wild guess.

hahahahhhaaahahahahhhaahahahahahhhaaahhahahahaaaaa

(actually not funny...)

Ehhhh.... more like the current system is a 25% override of the lowest credit day added to all days of the trip that were originally off. For example, a ****ty 4 day trip worth 16hrs... if all 4 days are 4 hours, you’d get paid 20hrs. (4x125%)-4=1 hr sdo override for your lowest credit day. 1hr x 4 days = 4 additional hours.

If the hours were 6, 5, 3.5, and 1.5... the trip would pay 17.125 hrs. (1.5x125%)-1.5= .375 additional pay, multiplied by 4 days is additional sdo pay in addition to the trip credit.

Seriously it seems like the company purposely builds ****ty trips to avoid paying more sdo pay with the way the current system works. The only silver lining is that the lowest credit day won’t matter anymore in the new system. The drawback? Gotta work more than 75hrs... and reserve levels don’t trigger critical pay.

^that last sentence is where our union screwed up. If that language were left in the contract I’d be kinda happy about the new tier system but by excluding that... ouch. Now only the company can declare critical, or if the company starts junior manning but I gotta go back and check the exact language

Most pilots will see a pay bump however the potential to earn more is taken away... we got enhanced reserve rules!!



Don’t ask me what they are though cause they haven’t come yet. But it’s going to be awesome, they’re right around the corner, and going to industry leading!!! (from over a year ago and we still have squat Incase sarcasm doesn’t transmit over the internet)

I understand what you’re saying, but the ones that will earn more, could earn even more now if they wanted to. They just choose not to.

Basically between the 2 systems there’s 3 levels of pay. Low, mid, and highest credit. (Not that it’s that much of a difference by PSA standards).

The current system can get you low if you want it or high if you want. The new system... mid is the best you can do and low is still there if you want max days off like the current system.

The company is 3 steps ahead of the union.

Its 125% of whatever you pick up. So if you pick up a 16 hour 4 day it will pay 20 hours no matter how much credit each day is.

I think youre getting confused by the lowest credit day part. That only applies if say you totally rearrange your schedule for the month during first come and first serve and you end up with 15 days off for example, but you started with 17 days off for the month. You lost 2 days off for the month so youre owed 2 days of SDO. But lets say the last trip trade or pickup was a 4 day trip. Since youre only owed 2 days of SDO you take the lowest 2 credit days of that last 4 day you traded for and multiply those 2 days by 125%.

It is confusing, but the company used it to their advantage. The new system is easier but it pays less.

I definitely agree with your critical pay statement though. Almost every other airline, including Mesa, pays 150%/200% for opentime pickup. We virtually eliminated our 150% critical pay and took our 125% down to around 110-120% depending on how many hours you work.

We were already one of the lowest paid airlines. We will become a lower paid airline when this gets implemented in April.

The biggest problem IMHO is the tiers not the idea.

Maybe some mathy type can figure out the amount of hours available per month divided by the amount of people that will be able to bid and hold more than 85 hrs. I'm going to guess the percentage is not that high.

That is why we need trip and duty rigs. This could actually work more in our favor if we had decent trip and duty rigs. More and achievable tiers also.

As it stands now... as you said it seems the company is three steps ahead of the Union. I wish it wasn't so US vs THEM... of course we will always differ on what is and what should be but as you also said - we were already solidly mid tier on pay and with everyone else making gains and us arguably going backwards we are solidly trending to the bottom...

My December award would have been 99.7 hrs credit using industry standard trip rig, but was mid 80s without. I'd have made 87.5 hrs under our tier system or 109.5 with duty rig and our new tiers.

That seems extremely cucked. It wasn't quite what I was thinking, however. Our system is based on reserve staffing so a couple weeks out, the trip pays 115%. Then eventually 130%. Withing 120 hours it pays 150% but the kicker is a reserve can proffer for the trip 5 days out so there's a very short window to snag the 150%. CS usually pulls it off the trip anyway so you'll need to call and argue to get it.

Your new system seems like a bad deal unless you don't care about being at home with your family and block 100 a month.

It would nice if they just made us competitive with the hourly rates, instead of coming up with hocus-pocus ways of paying us to do more work while not really benefitting us. Guarantee their problems of getting people to cover open time would go away quick.

This is one of many reasons why I think the company is 3 steps ahead of us. We might be filling classes now, but eventually... whether it’s classes starting to dry up or they want us to go to PBS... the company knows they’ll have to raise pay at some point in the future.

This new agreement will make those future pay raises close to cost neutral or at least very negligible compared to our present pay and contract.

Many ways to skin a cat... I can see the idea as being sound - reward people who want to work.

The tiers are kind of meh and the top end reward is kind of meh too. I take that back... they aspire to be meh.

So yea, could have went about it in a different way. This way could work if the tiers were different IMHO and/or backed by industry standard rigs would be even better IMHO.

Remember y'all, we are the most respected regional carrier

I like how on the employee site the latest company message states

“LOA #12 represents a true departure from the rest of the regional airline industry methodology regarding pilot pay, that we believe sets us apart in a positive way” then goes on to talk about the definition of “block to block” starting at door close and parking brake release.... uhhhhhh..... it would be easier to name the airlines that don’t use this method.

Then they talk about the new tier system that pays us less than what we currently have which was already severely lagging behind industry standard.

I would love to hear their definition of “most respected” and “a true departure from the rest of the regional airline industry”. Everyone else is in 2019 and we’re going back to 2014

No company wants to raise hourly rates because then they’re locked in. Let’s say the economy takes a dump and now all of a sudden everyone is getting min guarantee lines. Under a tiered system, pilot costs go down because less people are flying into those higher paying tiers. With a pay raise, there’s no way to cut costs without a concessionary agreement.

Does this mean you can stop with the push 10 and hold stuff?

I thougt I read "with intention of getting underway" or something that implied we "shouldn't" just drop the parking brake to start the clock if we aren't about to push.

I'm also sure that's not how things will be done or how things are done elsewhere, and I'm sure the company is aware of that.

The brake release and door closed helps everyone's on-time departure numbers (ramp, gate, aircrew, company). The customers couldn't care less about an on-time departure, as long as we arrive on time or early. It's really a stupid metric they focus on.