AA WO Flow Differences
 

Could someone explain to me what the differences in the flow are between Envoy, Piedmont, and PSA? Are the terms the same or do they differ between the three? Is one more superior to the others? Thanks in advance!

*makes popcorn*


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Where do you live and how is the commute to the WO bases?

There are subtle differences, but there are even more similarities.

The biggest difference is the bases. If you want Texas or NY, go to Envoy. If you live in DC, Tennessee, Ohio or NC, go to PSA.

Piedmont flow will get you to AA the quickest

Once piedmont grows...

No they're all the same you're going to be waiting years and years while your buddies at other non WO get in before you. AA alone is going to have like 600 retirements a year for the next 10 at least. By the time you flow 7 to 10 years later you'll be at the bottom of the hiring curve.

PSA and envoy have already had massive growth spurts- lots of people in front of you for flow. Piedmont is in the middle of a massive growth spurt, far fewer people in front of you, lots more will be behind you. That's the biggest difference.

True, quick upgrades to get hired outside of the flow. But, flow is good too. Nice little insurance policy.

The question was purely about the flow differences between the 3 airlines. That was clear in the title and in the actual post. Not bases, not differences in the airlines, not anything except the flow differences. Thanks for the help PSA help.

Lol envoy and growth in the same sentence.

Piedmont Airlines: Based on total list pilots, and increases every 125 pilots on the list. We are currently at 596 pilots and flowing 4/mo. Next month 600 pilots triggers our flow increase to 5/mo.

Piedmont pilots do not have to be captains to flow.

If a PDT pilot fails training at AA, he/she is able to return to PDT at their original seniority number/pay.

MIND YOU: over 100 pilots are lifers/attrition = FAST FLOW

Out of each new Hire Class a month (about 80) Half are WO's, the other 45% are Military and the 4-5 pilots left are from other Regional Carriers (super lucky ones). Good Luck with that thinking.:rolleyes:

Envoy for new hires based on total list. 5 flows per month plus 1 for every 125 pilot after 480. So at 605 we would have 6 flows.

The rest of the list flows at differing faster rates.

350 lifers = faster flow?

So your flow is no better than PSA. Who started at 5/month. And if you fail at AA, you can return to the same position at PSA. And tell me, do you flow out of seniority at PDT?

So 600 pilots with 5 flows a month but lets subtract 100 lifers so 500 potential AA employees moving at the rate of 5 a month. Thats 100 months. Thats 8.3 years.

I never get this argument. AA WOs have the fastest upgrade time in the industry. We can apply at other majors or at AA just like the non WOs. The majority of people at WO use the flow as a back up and not primary.

Some do wait for the flow because they desire an AA base. It is THE best option if you want to work at AA and have all civilian time as mentioned above. The average total time to get on with a major is still 5-7k hours it will take you that long anyway to get the hours.

Alright, maybe I'm just being dense regarding AA flows or flows in general.

Getting ready to apply to Envoy. I'm not applying for the flow. I'm applying for the domiciles and the commute. Then industry reputation. Then the pay. Then, I guess, the flow. But I really don't even get the flow?

If I'm chugging along in 4-5 years as a CA with Envoy, keeping my nose clean, etc....why not just apply to DL, AA, UAL etc. once I get competitive.

Again not trying to be dumb, I've read these forums for probably 5 months now and doing my research to pick my regional. I just don't get why the flow matters and why people put so much value on it?

Definitely I see value in a going with a WO though.

Do you think everyone is sitting around just waiting for the flow? They are still going to Delta, UPS, United. Remember other airlines are still hiring right?

The value of the flow is 1) You are NEVER guaranteed a job at a Major. You can have a clean record and good resume but you can still be turned down. The flow takes that out of the equation.
2) The flow allows for continuous movement among the ranks. Each month you know your moving up the seniority ladder at one of the WO's. This helps with QOL and other bidding advantages.

You're right there is definitely value in going to a WO. I'm sure soon the other Major's might take notice of this also. Especially if the classes at the WO's continue to get filled up.

Thats kinda my point.....I feel like the flows are just a fancy recruiting tool. It's nice and all but......

Fancy recruiting tool? You mean like sign on bonus money some regionals offer new hires? Or the CPP that United offers it's express carriers? Of the deal Delta offers it's Endeavor folks? You mean those fancy recruiting tools that don't even offer a REAL guaranteed job at their airlines? It's nice and all but????????

Flow + Attrition means that the reality for your time to flow is better than what the bar room napkin math says it is when you only go off the assumption of every single person ahead of you waiting for their time to flow.

Trouble is, there is no way to accurately predict the number of people ahead of you who will leave the company for whatever reason prior to their number being called to flow. All you can take from that is that your actual time to flow will be to some degree better than the straight math on the above mentioned assumption.

And you're right, the flow most certainly is a recruiting tool, with the difference being that only the 3 AA regionals have a true no interview flow to a mainline carrier. Why wouldn't you advertise that? The flow is currently working as advertised. Every month we are sending people to AA.

If literally every single person ahead of me takes the flow and we don't grow at all (and we don't experience another 9/11 or economic collapse), I've got 4 more years till I flow, and I've been here just over 1 year. So, ~5 years to go from regional to mainline is historically pretty quick. There are thousands of guys in the regionals today who have spent decades there. So, I have no complaint about waiting 5 years, especially in light of the improvements in pay at the WO's. And the reality is that I really have less than 4 years to go because of non-flow attrition combined with strong growth well right now. And in the meantime I'll still be applying off the street for UA, DL, AA, FX, etc. If they don't call me, I've still got the flow.

So, 4 years in total to get to mainline? Not too shabby at all. But, the longer you wait to get in line, the longer you'll be in it.

Okay that explanation with the anticipated seniority over X time for bidding and assignments helps out. I can see that. But again there is NEVER a guarantee like you said.

I'd rather have $1000 bucks in a couple days, then $5 bucks in an hour.

Makes sense. Thank you. Morale of the story, stay WO

The flow matters to me because I don't want to volunteer, go to job fairs, pay for interview preps or resume services and update my app every month.

Here is my interview.

Interviewer: "So were have you volunteered Mr. candidate."

Me: "Are you serious?? 3 kids, an ex wife, girlfriend, house to not lose on FO pay and 11 days off a month but you want me volunteering!!! Are you high on HR kool-aid???".

Interviewer: "NEXT"

But hey nothing is stopping anyone from going to job fairs, volunteering, updating your resume and interview preps and maybe getting a great job at somewhere besides AA......maybe. If I wasn't so bitter that's what I would do:)

I can get that side of it. But I feel like you're putting a lot of faith in one option in an industry that fluxes so much from year to year. I'd much rather have my choice. But life happens.....

Go to the regional that gives you the best quality of life and stability. Don't choose a regional for a flow alone.

Agreed. Commutability is my biggy unfortunately :( NWFL is a booger....

If you think that trend will continue, you don't understand 2nd grade math very well.

You realize you're in the airline industry right? If you wanted guarantees then you should've found another profession.:rolleyes:

I might not after the 10 year contract is up. But I willing to bet that many at the WO's will be in as good or better positions then many other regionals.

That I agree with. Unless American is your #1 choice down the road.

How is he placing faith in one option? Stop THINKING that if you go to an American WO's that you have to go to American!!!! Why do some many people think that? He comes to PDT. He upgrades in less then a year! Gets his 1000hrs of PIC. Shut Gun resumes out! Gets calls from JetBlue, Spirit, even United! Even Delta if he finished his College in 4 years or less!
PEOPLE STOP THINKING THAT IF YOU GO TO A WO'ED YOU HAVE TO GO TO AMERICAN. It's idiotic thinking!

This is definitely the best person to be taking career advice from... :rolleyes:

I'm between VPS and PNS, 8+ flights a day to PSA's hub at CLT. Don't flick your booger my way! Lol!

OMG! What's up Sweet!! You still at AWAC?

Yea keep waiting for the flow while your buds are already at United or the other majors

Why would anyone want to take you seriously? And what is your fascination with male genitalia? You know what, forget I asked...

Hmm? I doubt anyone is "waiting" on a flow unless they are very close(6 months?) away.

Having a flow doesn't preclude you from applying to united/delta/fedex/whatever.

But you tell your friends back home that you fly for American, don't you actually want to go to American?