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Originally Posted by jlhenderson70
(Post 127194)
What the heck is a 404 ? no pics of it on Airliners.net
Cessna 404 - Cargo
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Originally Posted by Ftrooppilot
(Post 127206)
Ever been asked, "How old would you think you are if you didn't know how old you are ?"
or It isn't what we don't know that will hurt us. It's what we don't know that we don't know that will hurt us. Young aspiring pilots need mentoring. Take care of that FO who might be your Captain some day.:eek: |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 126512)
Some of the regionals may hiring at the wet commercial level, but I can guarantee you that Delta is not :rolleyes: Off the street competetive for DAL is probably something like 10,000 hours, 6,000+ Jet PIC.
Most of us aren't really happy about it...there's a lot to be learned by spending 1000-1500 hours in general aviation/135. Personally I think any 121 pilot should hold an ATP. Last, hiring and promotions should be done by qualifications. In addition to flight time, a college degree, veteran status, work experience, etc., is just as important as flight time in considering an applicant. Personally, if I were the hiring manager, I would take an instructor with 600 hours that has a college degree over someone with no education and 2000 hours. |
Originally Posted by texaspilot76
(Post 127243)
I were the hiring manager, I would take an instructor with 600 hours that has a college degree over someone with no education and 2000 hours.
At 600 hours, one hasn't even had time to get wet behind the ears and Unless you are coming from the Military, 2000 hours ain't much to brag about either. |
As I do see where you guys are coming from, and yes, 200 hours is a small amount, but I'm sure as you know, these times are different. It takes about 6-8 years to try to make it to a major carrier. So thats really 6-8 years of making barely enough money to support yourself, and/or family. Nowadays pilot pay is low regardless, due to the price of tickets. Atleast regionals are giving us a chance to build up and move on.
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Shouldn't it be kept in mind that the pilots (high or low time ones) aren't the ppl posting the low hiring times??? it's the airlines. They wouldn't be hiring at these times if they didn't feel they could sufficiently train the pilots. Even if the airlines do post low times, thats no guarantee that the pilot is getting hired/through training.
Bottom line is: aviation is a business, airlines are going to do whatever they can to keep the costs down, even if that means hiring the low time pilots who will fly for nonexistant pay and QOL. I'm not economics afficiando, but its simple cost/benefit and risk/reward analyses. I don't think there are many career-minded pilots out there who wouldn't take advantage of the lower hiring times, I'd be lying if i said i wasn't going to. It may not be right, but that seems the nature of our business, the sooner you get hired, the better. If you don't take that job, someone else will. Its sad but for most of us, the price of noblity & the moral high ground is just too steep. Anyway, I just think we shouldn't be attacking each other over the decisions we aren't making. Personally I think that more often than not, flight time is an accurate measure of our skills, however there are always exceptions. IMHO, if someone came out of a 141 paper mill as a "good" pilot, that probably would've happened anyway, and not everyone coming from the part61 schools is automatically entitled to the airline seat. It all depends on the pilot. ----------------- Just so i don't get flamed too bad: I've been flying for 10yrs through high school & college (not aeronautical sci major) & CFI'ing for the last 1.5 yrs. I considered ERAU when I was a senior in h.s. but i'm glad i ultimately took the route I did and i feel i'm a better pilot because of it. I have no airline experience (yet :D ) so you guys already with the seats know better than i do, this is just the logic i've made of the whole situation. |
Originally Posted by 4N1flyr
(Post 127262)
Its sad but for most of us, the price of noblity & the moral high ground is just too steep. . . . Anyway, I just think we shouldn't be attacking each other over the decisions we aren't making.
. . . Personally I think that more often than not, flight time is an accurate measure of our skills, however there are always exceptions. . . . .It all depends on the pilot.. |
Originally Posted by iahflyr
(Post 126622)
Why does the FAA impose hiring minimums on Part 135 IFR but not on Part 121??
Many 135 operators operate ASEL and AMEL (often turbine AMEL). The AMEL time is more desireable and pays better (especially turbine), and seniority determines who flys what. For this reason 135 new hires go into ASEL which are usually single-pilot...hence many 135 new-hires have to meet 135 PIC requirements. 121 operators usually hire for SIC only. |
Originally Posted by flyingchris86
(Post 127249)
As I do see where you guys are coming from, and yes, 200 hours is a small amount, but I'm sure as you know, these times are different. It takes about 6-8 years to try to make it to a major carrier. So thats really 6-8 years of making barely enough money to support yourself, and/or family. Nowadays pilot pay is low regardless, due to the price of tickets. Atleast regionals are giving us a chance to build up and move on.
And a reason being that the regionals hire us low timers is because we're the ones that will do it for less....the ones that wanted MORE $$ for their jobs were the ones that arent there anymore (perhaps moved on to majors/corporate)...so dont be mad at us youngsters trying to get in the cockpit of an rj. It's in fact partly YOUR fault that we're eligible to fly the plane your wife and kids are on :D |
Originally Posted by shanejj
(Post 127529)
And a reason being that the regionals hire us low timers is because we're the ones that will do it for less....the ones that wanted MORE $$ for their jobs were the ones that arent there anymore (perhaps moved on to majors/corporate)...so dont be mad at us youngsters trying to get in the cockpit of an rj. It's in fact partly YOUR fault that we're eligible to fly the plane your wife and kids are on :D
Another reason why a degree should be required...to keep teenagers out of jet cockpits. |
Originally Posted by DMEarc
(Post 127541)
That is a stupid post and directly reflects your immaturity. You're 18? I wouldn't let you fly my bags around in a 172, let alone an EFFING regional jet.
Another reason why a degree should be required...to keep teenagers out of jet cockpits. But, It's the truth... think about it before u try to take a shot at me. and for ur info, I'm 19 and will have a 4y degree in '08.:eek: |
Originally Posted by DMEarc
(Post 127541)
Another reason why a degree should be required...to keep teenagers out of jet cockpits.
Why the hangup on total hours, age criteria, and college degrees when "quality of training and depth of experience" should be the criteria ? The Israeli Air Force (IAF) has one of the finest pilot training programs in the world. They start the selection process at age 15 and enter at 18. The program is three years long and only 10-12% make it to graduation. Some of the top fighter pilots in the world are twenty-one and do not have a college degree. In past years many of their top pilots have been "teenagers." A significant number become El AL pilots while continuing as IAF reserve pilots. Prior to 1962 the USAF trained thousands of pilots and navigators in the Aviation Cadet program. No college was required. One year of training was rewarded with 2nd Lt.'s bars and pilot or navigator wings. You had to be twenty-one by graduation date. I know one pilot who "lied his age" and was an F-86 fighter pilot at Homestead AFB (Miami) at age ninteen. I'm not sure (someone else could confirm) but I think the Army has Warrant Officer helicopter pilots trained and flying combat by age twenty-one. Instead of "flaming" these young folks becuse they have goals, lets encourage them and give them advice on what training and experience to get. :) |
Originally Posted by cruiseclimb
(Post 126541)
I hate to say it, but this is the beginning of the end. I can see some kid sitting there with 600 hours in the cockpit sharing his "there I was" stories.... Wait, they do that now. Never mind..
I agree Rick, an ATP is priceless.. When I started this back in the 80s, the mins to apply to a commuter was 1,500 with 500 ME. I think quality experience does count but my sim time doesn't count as TT but it was very good training. |
That's exactly right.
Low timers are willing to get into the cockpit of an RJ for ****ty pay. Several reasons perhaps....build hrs, SJS, ego, etc... The high timers hate this because we're "taking away" their jobs....much how like majors hate the regionals for "taking away" their routes... If they were in our shoes...they would have done the same damn thing...so whats the deal then?:D Paying my dues as a CFI because the ones before us had to also?? sure...I'll jump off a cliff to join your sorority:D |
Shane,
While i agree with what you are saying, especially that if they were in your shoes with the same opportunity they would have jumped at it. However, youre tone and text makes your age and immaturity at that age shine through. A sh!tty attitude like yours is more important than whatever that number under TT says in your logbook, and thats what the airlines need to aviod hiring. |
Originally Posted by mccube5
(Post 127651)
Shane,
While i agree with what you are saying, especially that if they were in your shoes with the same opportunity they would have jumped at it. However, youre tone and text makes your age and immaturity at that age shine through. A sh!tty attitude like yours is more important than whatever that number under TT says in your logbook, and thats what the airlines need to aviod hiring. still not a reason for others to follow the footsteps.... sorry if I offended you... |
Don't worry about offending me....maybe just trying to give you some advice to be a little more thoughtful with the rants you post on here, and maybe then you wouldnt catch so much flak and get into p!ssing contests with everyone.
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Originally Posted by shanejj
(Post 127635)
That's exactly right.
Low timers are willing to get into the cockpit of an RJ for ****ty pay. Several reasons perhaps....build hrs, SJS, ego, etc... The high timers hate this because we're "taking away" their jobs....much how like majors hate the regionals for "taking away" their routes... If they were in our shoes...they would have done the same damn thing...so whats the deal then?:D Paying my dues as a CFI because the ones before us had to also?? sure...I'll jump off a cliff to join your sorority:D |
Originally Posted by XJPILOT1
(Post 127973)
You're not taking my job first of all. But when you sit to the right of me and can't pull your weight,you may not have a job. This is a team effort like none you have ever seen. You need us, we don't need you. We can find more FO's. The company really wants Captains. Some never get there. It takes more then just flying. Remember that. You've not been in the airline environment yet. Captains are managers of many people. When you say hours, think experience. In all these posts you can hear inexperience. Get your training, get in here and learn, OJT. This whole thing about 250 hr pilot are just as good as 1000hr pilots is bull!! Ask the insurance companies. Statistics don't lie.
I never said that a 250hrs pilot is just as good as a 1000hr pilot.... ofcourse he won't be...there's not substitute for experience... but how much better is 1000hr pilot than a 500hr pilot? How much better is 1500hr pilot compared to a 1000hr pilot? While anybody with some training can manipulate flight controls, the experience shows when making sound decisions...and you won't learn to make those decisions unless ur sitting next to the guy making them.. The way ur making it sound is like low timers are nothint more than private students... If we're low time, and your high time.....what are you compared to a 3 or 4000hr captain then? hmmm:rolleyes: |
Low Time Training
Would like to hear concrete "flameless" suggestions on the following. Keep in mind that it may not be long before we substitute the word "Major" for "Regional."
FACTS BEARING ON PROBLEM 1.There is a regional airline "feeding frenzy" going on trying to find pilots. The mimimums for hire keep dropping. Flaming each other about the merits of different flight hour levels will not stop the feeding frenzy. 2.The regionals will hire low time pilots. 3. Current screening and initial training programs may be designed for higher experience level new hires. Using pass/fail criteria based on higher experience levels (without changing training) may result in higher % of failures. 4.Standards for advancement to F/O IO training should NOT be changed. PROBLEM: How should training programs be changed to insure low total time new hires recieve fair screening evaluation and then achieve all previous established training criteria before being becoming operational? :confused: :confused: :confused: |
"Flaming each other about the merits of different flight hour levels will not stop the feeding frenzy'
Nothing will "stop it" outside a crash and the FAA. Outside that, the end result isn't worth debating, it's gonna happen either way. At the same time, I don't see why I should shut my mouth about something I see as a gross error in the way things are vs the way things used to be. |
Originally Posted by GliderCFI
(Post 126672)
600 hours is a lot different than 200. I'm not saying I'm "deserving of a jet" or anything, but I just cleared 600 hours last month and I've been instructing in one way or another for a year and a half now, and I know I'm a heck of a lot more capable than a 200 hour pilot. Granted some of that comes from flying last semester in a Cessna 404, but we still went to places such as Atlanta and O'Hare with it. I know I'm going to get my head bitten off for this, but seriously folks. What is the point of complaining about young or inexperienced pilots when it's the future whether we like it or not? Yeah times used to be different. So what? I'm guessing some of you complaining about "when I was your age" issues flew civillian. Well guess what? There was a time too when military guys worried about all those crazy civillian pilots coming up the ranks.
Sooner or later, you're going to have a young and inexperienced FO in the cockpit sitting next to you. What are you going to do? Harass him for being stupid? Or make a difference? If he's having problems, try to help him out instead of belittling him. It's like complaining about someone in a political office when you don't vote. Moral of this story is when you get down to it, stop complaining, accept the fact that there really is a shortage of pilots in training while the industry needs more. Accept the fact that the jet jocks get younger and younger and their logbooks are getting thinner and thinner every day. And yes I too am not a big fan of the ATP schools, and the 90 day wonder flight schools, but hey, don't crap on the guys who are training in a legit fashion, and just happen to be what the airlines are looking for. Seriously. What do you guys propose they do? Not apply until they've instructed for 2000 hours and no longer enjoy the career field we are all sworn to? Once again, I'm not trying to tick people off, I'm just trying to shed some logic on this. By the way, I too am a student at MTSU, as well as an instrctor for the flight school. #1) You would Sh!t bricks going it alone thinking about, Getting down from altitude, not overspeeding the plane, setting up the FMS, complying with speed and altitude restrictions, flying the plane and operating the radios while at 480 kts., running check lists, talking to the FA's (Flight Attendants) in back, preparing for an emergency landing in case you botched the approach up, making sure you didn't get slow on the approach or even forgetting to put the gear down . . . #2)You probably wouldn't know what to do first, you might even freeze up. Remember, there is no one there to encourage you or correct your mistakes. THIS IS WHY IT'S SCARY TO FLY WITH LOWER TIME PILOTS WHO HAVE ONLY FLOWN SMALL GA AIRCRAFT. |
Originally Posted by Ellen
(Post 128519)
I appreciate your confidence, but if I became unconscious or incapacitated on you IOE and you had a total of 25 hours (REAL TIME) in a jet . . . Even with 1200 TT or more . . .
#1) You would Sh!t bricks going it alone thinking about, Getting down from altitude, not overspeeding the plane, setting up the FMS, complying with speed and altitude restrictions, flying the plane and operating the radios while at 480 kts., running check lists, talking to the FA's (Flight Attendants) in back, preparing for an emergency landing in case you botched the approach up, making sure you didn't get slow on the approach or even forgetting to put the gear down . . . #2)You probably wouldn't know what to do first, you might even freeze up. Remember, there is no one there to encourage you or correct your mistakes. THIS IS WHY IT'S SCARY TO FLY WITH LOWER TIME PILOTS WHO HAVE ONLY FLOWN SMALL GA AIRCRAFT. It honestly does sound like this happend to you... If ppl who have only flown GA a/c shouldn't be allowed up that alley, how r they supose to get into flying larger commercial a/c? Every possible problem you named, you get trained for... Getting down from altitude, not overspeeding the plane, setting up the FMS, complying with speed and altitude restrictions, flying the plane and operating the radios while at 480 kts., You have an autopilot AND there's a CA on board... why do you think a FO would screw up? And if you became unconscious on board, your not going anywhere so why get yourself into something you can't handle, AND take 49 other ppl with you.... besides...in case of emergency....arent you allowed to deviate from any far? |
Originally Posted by shanejj
(Post 128528)
It honestly does sound like this happend to you...
If ppl who have only flown GA a/c shouldn't be allowed up that alley, how r they supose to get into flying larger commercial a/c? Every possible problem you named, you get trained for... Getting down from altitude, not overspeeding the plane, setting up the FMS, complying with speed and altitude restrictions, flying the plane and operating the radios while at 480 kts., You have an autopilot AND there's a CA on board... why do you think a FO would screw up? And if you became unconscious on board, your not going anywhere so why get yourself into something you can't handle, AND take 49 other ppl with you.... besides...in case of emergency....arent you allowed to deviate from any far? |
It's a Cessna Titan, little bigger than a 414
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What do pax think?
Preface: I am an ex-regional pilot that admittedly has been having a hard time with leaving "the game", so that's why I come here on occassion. I think this is a hysterical debate. I'll leave my personal views on this subject out, excluding the fact that the low time newbies do make me think twice about which carrier I would fly on.
Anyway, I was sitting here reading this thread and all the "but 600 hours is enough experience" and "I'm 19 and ready to be an airline pilot" type comments, and thought to myself; wonder what the pax would think? So, I let a few of the people I work with see some of the posts on this thread, and each one of them is now thoroughly frightened to fly and had some pretty choice remarks. So the "complaining" is not just coming from the "old timer" pilots on this board, but could also be from the people that are riding in the back and are "clued in". |
Originally Posted by directbears
(Post 128652)
Preface: I am an ex-regional pilot that admittedly has been having a hard time with leaving "the game", so that's why I come here on occassion. I think this is a hysterical debate. I'll leave my personal views on this subject out, excluding the fact that the low time newbies do make me think twice about which carrier I would fly on.
Anyway, I was sitting here reading this thread and all the "but 600 hours is enough experience" and "I'm 19 and ready to be an airline pilot" type comments, and thought to myself; wonder what the pax would think? So, I let a few of the people I work with see some of the posts on this thread, and each one of them is now thoroughly frightened to fly and had some pretty choice remarks. So the "complaining" is not just coming from the "old timer" pilots on this board, but could also be from the people that are riding in the back and are "clued in". I still don't get how much damage a low times could do.....he's not flying the plane, the captain is....what could the low times possibly do....the radios? Bring the gear down/up? Flaps? So seriously.....the captain with a lot more experience is right next to him, why isn't he then allowed in the cockpit?:confused: |
Originally Posted by shanejj
(Post 128662)
I still don't get how much damage a low times could do.....he's not flying the plane, the captain is....what could the low times possibly do....the radios? Bring the gear down/up? Flaps?
So seriously.....the captain with a lot more experience is right next to him, why isn't he then allowed in the cockpit?:confused: An FO, while the least experienced (usually) on the flight deck, still bears the responsibility for conducting a safe flight. Not trying to be an A-hole, but if you go to an airline job with the mind set of: he's not flying the plane, the captain is....what could the low times possibly do....the radios? Bring the gear down/up? Flaps? I flew with many Captains that not only valued my experience and input as an FO, but in some cases needed it when things were going poorly. There is a reason these aircraft are certified for 2 pilots. On most days flying these machines are pretty easy with automation and all, but when the doo doo hits the fan things can get crazy pretty fast and good CRM + crew experience (sometimes luck) are the only things that will get everyone's rump on mother earth safely. Plus, just because the Pilot is the Captain, doesn't mean he is God's gift to flight. I've flown with plenty of them that I had to scratch my head and wonder how the he11 that person got into the left seat. It is a crew environment. That means both pilots back each other up and keep each other out of trouble. Not everyone, including the CA can be on top of their game all of the time. What would you do if your Captain keeled over on your first flight off of IOE? Your training wheels are off now, what are you going to do? When the captain has lost all situational awareness for what ever reason, are you going to sit there and watch while he CFITs you into a mountain, because he’s the Captain and is flying the plane while the FO ONLY slings the gear?:eek: Your attitude towards the responsibility of an FO scares me even more than the low times I’m hearing about here. Good day and good luck. |
"Your attitude towards the responsibility of an FO scares me even more than the low times I’m hearing about here"
Yeah. |
Originally Posted by directbears
(Post 128736)
I think you are missing the point.
An FO, while the least experienced (usually) on the flight deck, still bears the responsibility for conducting a safe flight. Not trying to be an A-hole, but if you go to an airline job with the mind set of: You are doing your crew, your pax, and yourself a disservice with that kind of thinking. Granted, regional airlines are a stepping stone where you can gain MORE experience, specifically 121 experience. However, it is unprofessional and irresponsible to think that all you do as an FO is sling the gear and man the radio. I flew with many Captains that not only valued my experience and input as an FO, but in some cases needed it when things were going poorly. There is a reason these aircraft are certified for 2 pilots. On most days flying these machines are pretty easy with automation and all, but when the doo doo hits the fan things can get crazy pretty fast and good CRM + crew experience (sometimes luck) are the only things that will get everyone's rump on mother earth safely. Plus, just because the Pilot is the Captain, doesn't mean he is God's gift to flight. I've flown with plenty of them that I had to scratch my head and wonder how the he11 that person got into the left seat. It is a crew environment. That means both pilots back each other up and keep each other out of trouble. Not everyone, including the CA can be on top of their game all of the time. What would you do if your Captain keeled over on your first flight off of IOE? Your training wheels are off now, what are you going to do? When the captain has lost all situational awareness for what ever reason, are you going to sit there and watch while he CFITs you into a mountain, because he’s the Captain and is flying the plane while the FO ONLY slings the gear?:eek: Your attitude towards the responsibility of an FO scares me even more than the low times I’m hearing about here. Good day and good luck. A FO isn't there to be able to take control over the whole plane, and only then should he be allowed up there... if the captain "loses" S.A for whatever reason....what is he doing left seat then? Maybe we shud start a thread about "captains not able to perform duties" |
Is there a reason why corporate jobs or fractionals have higher req?
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Originally Posted by p1ayn
(Post 128825)
Is there a reason why corporate jobs or fractionals have higher req?
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ic thanks.
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Originally Posted by Ellen
(Post 128519)
I appreciate your confidence, but if I became unconscious or incapacitated on you IOE and you had a total of 25 hours (REAL TIME) in a jet . . . Even with 1200 TT or more . . .
#1) You would Sh!t bricks going it alone thinking about, Getting down from altitude, not overspeeding the plane, setting up the FMS, complying with speed and altitude restrictions, flying the plane and operating the radios while at 480 kts., running check lists, talking to the FA's (Flight Attendants) in back, preparing for an emergency landing in case you botched the approach up, making sure you didn't get slow on the approach or even forgetting to put the gear down . . . #2)You probably wouldn't know what to do first, you might even freeze up. Remember, there is no one there to encourage you or correct your mistakes. THIS IS WHY IT'S SCARY TO FLY WITH LOWER TIME PILOTS WHO HAVE ONLY FLOWN SMALL GA AIRCRAFT. |
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