Principles: LCC vs Legacy
04-28-2017, 06:02 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
The point being the legacies are not going to fail or decline because they don't offer the best customer service. Their business model is different from their LCC competitors. I didn't say you were stupid, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. I said you were comparing apples to oranges. Kind of like comparing greyhound to uberblack....uber's a nicer ride but not a practical solution for most folks from Miami to Minot, ND.
04-28-2017, 06:22 AM
#12
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Having worked for both and seen both operations the differences are pretty shocking. In general the feel good, GO Team GO attitude that some LCC sell is a very thin facade over a mediocre airline. The lower pay at the LCC affects every aspect of the airline from baggage handlers to upper management. They aren't willing to pay for talent or competency and so you see many manager new hires at the LCC's be off the street hires with zero industry experience or even worse they promote from within. Pilots and flight attendants are generally good people but very little of our jobs is relevant to a career in route planning, operations, or middle management. They hire nice, friendly people but sometimes they hire quirky and "different" individuals who leave you scratching your head and feeling like you are in the land of misfit toys.
The difference in pay between a LCC and a legacy is in the millions of dollars over the course of the average career (check the UAL pay comparison from a few weeks ago), the flying is more diverse so you can find the aircraft and type of flying you like for your lifestyle, and you aren't the last line of defense in an operation that is barely holding together. The difference in professionalism from a LCC to a legacy is night and day at almost every level and is noticeable in almost every interaction. The LCC I was at tended to micromanage you to fit their idea of culture but when the rubber met the road you were just a number. I had to work there to really understand and appreciate the differences.
I wouldn't group Southwest with other LCC's. That is a different animal and a well run airline.
The difference in pay between a LCC and a legacy is in the millions of dollars over the course of the average career (check the UAL pay comparison from a few weeks ago), the flying is more diverse so you can find the aircraft and type of flying you like for your lifestyle, and you aren't the last line of defense in an operation that is barely holding together. The difference in professionalism from a LCC to a legacy is night and day at almost every level and is noticeable in almost every interaction. The LCC I was at tended to micromanage you to fit their idea of culture but when the rubber met the road you were just a number. I had to work there to really understand and appreciate the differences.
I wouldn't group Southwest with other LCC's. That is a different animal and a well run airline.
04-28-2017, 07:42 AM
#15
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Originally Posted by Aquaticus
Having worked for both and seen both operations the differences are pretty shocking. In general the feel good, GO Team GO attitude that some LCC sell is a very thin facade over a mediocre airline. The lower pay at the LCC affects every aspect of the airline from baggage handlers to upper management. They aren't willing to pay for talent or competency and so you see many manager new hires at the LCC's be off the street hires with zero industry experience or even worse they promote from within. Pilots and flight attendants are generally good people but very little of our jobs is relevant to a career in route planning, operations, or middle management. They hire nice, friendly people but sometimes they hire quirky and "different" individuals who leave you scratching your head and feeling like you are in the land of misfit toys.
The difference in pay between a LCC and a legacy is in the millions of dollars over the course of the average career (check the UAL pay comparison from a few weeks ago), the flying is more diverse so you can find the aircraft and type of flying you like for your lifestyle, and you aren't the last line of defense in an operation that is barely holding together. The difference in professionalism from a LCC to a legacy is night and day at almost every level and is noticeable in almost every interaction. The LCC I was at tended to micromanage you to fit their idea of culture but when the rubber met the road you were just a number. I had to work there to really understand and appreciate the differences.
I wouldn't group Southwest with other LCC's. That is a different animal and a well run airline.
The difference in pay between a LCC and a legacy is in the millions of dollars over the course of the average career (check the UAL pay comparison from a few weeks ago), the flying is more diverse so you can find the aircraft and type of flying you like for your lifestyle, and you aren't the last line of defense in an operation that is barely holding together. The difference in professionalism from a LCC to a legacy is night and day at almost every level and is noticeable in almost every interaction. The LCC I was at tended to micromanage you to fit their idea of culture but when the rubber met the road you were just a number. I had to work there to really understand and appreciate the differences.
I wouldn't group Southwest with other LCC's. That is a different animal and a well run airline.
04-28-2017, 08:06 AM
#16
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Originally Posted by Happyflyer
You may be oversimplifying your principles. Southwest contracts out heavy mx to the islands were fewer workers have A&Ps or speak English, they're just "supervised" by an A&P and work for less.
We have all heard about NAI, but plenty of trades are contractors now instead of company men. Every power plant, oil refinery, or chemical plant has far more contractors than company folks working in them.
The story is always the same, either know someone, or work as a contractor until you get chosen to be a company man.
We have all heard about NAI, but plenty of trades are contractors now instead of company men. Every power plant, oil refinery, or chemical plant has far more contractors than company folks working in them.
The story is always the same, either know someone, or work as a contractor until you get chosen to be a company man.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11/airplane-maintenance-disturbing-truth/amp
04-28-2017, 11:44 AM
#17
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Originally Posted by Aquaticus
Having worked for both and seen both operations the differences are pretty shocking. In general the feel good, GO Team GO attitude that some LCC sell is a very thin facade over a mediocre airline. The lower pay at the LCC affects every aspect of the airline from baggage handlers to upper management. They aren't willing to pay for talent or competency and so you see many manager new hires at the LCC's be off the street hires with zero industry experience or even worse they promote from within. Pilots and flight attendants are generally good people but very little of our jobs is relevant to a career in route planning, operations, or middle management. They hire nice, friendly people but sometimes they hire quirky and "different" individuals who leave you scratching your head and feeling like you are in the land of misfit toys.
The difference in pay between a LCC and a legacy is in the millions of dollars over the course of the average career (check the UAL pay comparison from a few weeks ago), the flying is more diverse so you can find the aircraft and type of flying you like for your lifestyle, and you aren't the last line of defense in an operation that is barely holding together. The difference in professionalism from a LCC to a legacy is night and day at almost every level and is noticeable in almost every interaction. The LCC I was at tended to micromanage you to fit their idea of culture but when the rubber met the road you were just a number. I had to work there to really understand and appreciate the differences.
I wouldn't group Southwest with other LCC's. That is a different animal and a well run airline.
The difference in pay between a LCC and a legacy is in the millions of dollars over the course of the average career (check the UAL pay comparison from a few weeks ago), the flying is more diverse so you can find the aircraft and type of flying you like for your lifestyle, and you aren't the last line of defense in an operation that is barely holding together. The difference in professionalism from a LCC to a legacy is night and day at almost every level and is noticeable in almost every interaction. The LCC I was at tended to micromanage you to fit their idea of culture but when the rubber met the road you were just a number. I had to work there to really understand and appreciate the differences.
I wouldn't group Southwest with other LCC's. That is a different animal and a well run airline.
04-28-2017, 04:11 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by sweetholyjesus
In the age of social media and with the recent customer service debacles lately, do you think companies like Jetblue and Southwest, which offer a consistent high value product, are in a better position to succeed than legacies that use lower quality aircraft and poorly paid subcontractors?
Do you think it's better in principle, as a pilot, to go for the money and work for a company that pays slightly higher airbus rates, but then pays regional contractors 50% of the appropriate wage to operate half of their flights? Or.. is it better to work for a company that pays less than the legacy but does not contract out any of their flying?
Yes, I like money just like everybody else. I'm just curious if anyone actually thinks about the whole picture before they decide that the big money legacies are the best thing out there right now for the profession.
Do you think it's better in principle, as a pilot, to go for the money and work for a company that pays slightly higher airbus rates, but then pays regional contractors 50% of the appropriate wage to operate half of their flights? Or.. is it better to work for a company that pays less than the legacy but does not contract out any of their flying?
Yes, I like money just like everybody else. I'm just curious if anyone actually thinks about the whole picture before they decide that the big money legacies are the best thing out there right now for the profession.
They are not immune. They just aren't in the news this quarter.
04-29-2017, 12:57 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by Geardownflaps30
Obviously you're unfamiliar with some of the customer service debacles that jetBlue suffers still during IROPS. Perhaps you also missed the reality tv show featuring southwest.
They are not immune. They just aren't in the news this quarter.
They are not immune. They just aren't in the news this quarter.
04-29-2017, 06:04 AM
#20
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Originally Posted by sweetholyjesus
The problem is I never tried to make it apples to apples, because if it was, the question would be pointless. The business model, customer experience, and principles are all different. I was curious to see if any of these factors have any real weight in someone's decision, or if pay scale trumps all.
Internal company culture (as experienced by the pilots) is huge. I will not work in a toxic culture, period. Few majors fit that description these days.
External culture, how the customers and public perceive the company, would certainly be a tie breaker if all else were about equal.
But most of us are not going to have multiple job offers in hand at one time (unless you're a top-tier fighter pilot). It would be a bad idea for most pilots to selectively apply to certain majors unless geography is a factor (ie if you live in NY and aren't moving, probably shouldn't apply to Hawaiian).
I think Aquaticus nailed it though.
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