Principles: LCC vs Legacy
05-01-2017 | 01:21 PM
#31
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From: 6th place
After the US-AW merger, they finally were up to 50% of the pilots just on property at US prior to 9/11 five years prior.
Yes, while they exist in name, they are shells of their former selves. Where did those jobs go? SWA/jetBlue mostly. Spirit. Etc.
Would you rather be at the bottom of a stagnant/shrinking place where you live and die by seniority or at a company that is growing rapidly that has a multi-decade year history of growth above GDP?
Don't look at the top pay rates - it's likely you'll never see them.
Yes, while they exist in name, they are shells of their former selves. Where did those jobs go? SWA/jetBlue mostly. Spirit. Etc.
Would you rather be at the bottom of a stagnant/shrinking place where you live and die by seniority or at a company that is growing rapidly that has a multi-decade year history of growth above GDP?
Don't look at the top pay rates - it's likely you'll never see them.
I'd rather be at a company that's not growing or even shrinking a little that has a massive amount of retirements on the horizon than go to one that's growing but has a ton of young pilots senior to me.
Retirements have to happen. Growth can be stopped at anytime. I think JB just announced they're slowing their growth plans.
05-01-2017 | 01:25 PM
#32
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Engines Turn or People Swim
After the US-AW merger, they finally were up to 50% of the pilots just on property at US prior to 9/11 five years prior.
Yes, while they exist in name, they are shells of their former selves. Where did those jobs go? SWA/jetBlue mostly. Spirit. Etc.
Would you rather be at the bottom of a stagnant/shrinking place where you live and die by seniority or at a company that is growing rapidly that has a multi-decade year history of growth above GDP?
Don't look at the top pay rates - it's likely you'll never see them.
Yes, while they exist in name, they are shells of their former selves. Where did those jobs go? SWA/jetBlue mostly. Spirit. Etc.
Would you rather be at the bottom of a stagnant/shrinking place where you live and die by seniority or at a company that is growing rapidly that has a multi-decade year history of growth above GDP?
Don't look at the top pay rates - it's likely you'll never see them.
But my buddies at several LCC's are not painting a rosy picture for upgrades right now.
05-01-2017 | 01:28 PM
#33
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Joined: Sep 2013
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From: Sitting SC at the Five Towns
In the age of social media and with the recent customer service debacles lately, do you think companies like Jetblue and Southwest, which offer a consistent high value product, are in a better position to succeed than legacies that use lower quality aircraft and poorly paid subcontractors?
Do you think it's better in principle, as a pilot, to go for the money and work for a company that pays slightly higher airbus rates, but then pays regional contractors 50% of the appropriate wage to operate half of their flights? Or.. is it better to work for a company that pays less than the legacy but does not contract out any of their flying?
I can't say I know anyone who's left a legacy for a LCC in the last 8 years. Plenty in the other direction. There's a reason for that -- pilots are generally smart. If it's corporate responsibility you want, make sure you put your 401k in a "responsible" fund and sleep well at night. Choosing one employer over another will do exactly jack squat to spread the wealth.
05-01-2017 | 01:29 PM
#34
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I'd rather be at a company that's not growing or even shrinking a little that has a massive amount of retirements on the horizon than go to one that's growing but has a ton of young pilots senior to me.
Retirements have to happen. Growth can be stopped at anytime. I think JB just announced they're slowing their growth plans.
Retirements have to happen. Growth can be stopped at anytime. I think JB just announced they're slowing their growth plans.
And it's slightly apples to oranges.
But did not DAL reduce it's widebody order? Sure, they'll STILL retire a crap ton, but still....
And UAL announced an huge order for 737's, only to reduce it to what, 4? Sure, they'll still retire a crap ton, but still....
So it does suck that JB announced slowing growth, but it's STILL GROWTH.
05-01-2017 | 01:32 PM
#35
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From: 6th place
True, your first part goes without saying. Retirements at the legacies far outpace those of the LCC/ULCC carriers.
And it's slightly apples to oranges.
But did not DAL reduce it's widebody order? Sure, they'll STILL retire a crap ton, but still....
And UAL announced an huge order for 737's, only to reduce it to what, 4? Sure, they'll still retire a crap ton, but still....
So it does suck that JB announced slowing growth, but it's STILL GROWTH.
And it's slightly apples to oranges.
But did not DAL reduce it's widebody order? Sure, they'll STILL retire a crap ton, but still....
And UAL announced an huge order for 737's, only to reduce it to what, 4? Sure, they'll still retire a crap ton, but still....
So it does suck that JB announced slowing growth, but it's STILL GROWTH.
I get that. But my point is even with no growth your seniority will rise quicker at a legacy than most LCCs who are growing.
AA has shrunk since I got here 4 years ago. Yet I still have 2500 people junior to me.
It's not even a debate. Just looks at the numbers.
05-01-2017 | 01:41 PM
#36
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Was simply saying, it's STILL growth.
05-01-2017 | 02:30 PM
#38
You scratched my anchor
Joined: Feb 2011
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After the US-AW merger, they finally were up to 50% of the pilots just on property at US prior to 9/11 five years prior.
Yes, while they exist in name, they are shells of their former selves. Where did those jobs go? SWA/jetBlue mostly. Spirit. Etc.
Would you rather be at the bottom of a stagnant/shrinking place where you live and die by seniority or at a company that is growing rapidly that has a multi-decade year history of growth above GDP?
Don't look at the top pay rates - it's likely you'll never see them.
Yes, while they exist in name, they are shells of their former selves. Where did those jobs go? SWA/jetBlue mostly. Spirit. Etc.
Would you rather be at the bottom of a stagnant/shrinking place where you live and die by seniority or at a company that is growing rapidly that has a multi-decade year history of growth above GDP?
Don't look at the top pay rates - it's likely you'll never see them.
How would you be at the bottom of a stagnant/shrinking list with 7,000 retiring in the next 10 years? Top pay rates? A 4 year FO at AA makes the same as a 10 year Spirit CA. Not following your arguments.
05-02-2017 | 10:30 AM
#39
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No brainer. Bye LCC - hello Legacy.
05-02-2017 | 11:11 AM
#40
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In the late 90's hiring was going crazy. All the majors were hiring like gangbusters and everyone was going to be a Captain in three years. United made their largest ever annual profit ($1 bil). It was like manna from heaven.
Just a few short years later, those who went to jetBlue, SWA, FedEx, UPS, etc. looked like geniuses.
That's all I'm saying. Look at the structural issues that the legacies have. Large oversized senior employee groups. Corporate culture where they spend spend spend whenever they get the money (save for Delta). Operating costs that are TWICE on a per seat mile basis than the ULCCs. There is a lot of downside protection going to a LCC and in an industry where seniority is #1 I think it's at least worth a passing thought on where you will be able to finish out your career without interruption.
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