The Truth about MESA
 

As an ex-Mesa pilot I wanted to put a post on here to educate anyone that is considering interviewing/employment with that place.

I used to read these forums a couple years ago before I decided to go Mesa. I read about people complaining and about people being frustrated with working at Mesa/Freedom/Air Midwest. I read about this on mesalouge and mesahub. However, being the optimistic person that I was, I just shrugged it off, thought that it was just a few people doing all the complaining.

I was set on getting to mainline and flying that ‘widebody’ ASAP. Apparently Mesa had the best upgrade around. So I went there.

I WAS ALL WRONG. :eek:

Here are the facts. I am posting them because I want to educate new guys and gals getting into this industry. Maybe you are a CFI, maybe at an aviation university, maybe you are thinking about a career change. Well if you are- go to work at a quality airline. Go to work at a quality airline. Go to work at a quality airline. This is a long post but I am trying to fill in the gaps of info that other posts leave out.


Mesa used to have a great upgrade because they had a massive expansion post 9/11 because a lot of the majors couldn’t afford to farm off their regional flying to quality carriers. Instead, the lowest bidder won- and that was Mesa because of the sub-par contract that the pilots and FAs work under. Long story short, this contract was essentially forced upon the pilots due to the alter-ego carrier that Ornstein was forming- Freedom. Similar to gojet/TSA. Lots of CRJ 700s and 900s were on order and being bought with Mesa Air Group money that had essentially been earned by Mesa employees. The catch- new employees (some call scabs) were flying these new airplanes, walking into the left seat of the new jets. See: whipsaw.


The majors have caught on. Mesa hasn’t been awarded any new flying in the last year- except 12 old Dash-8-100s out of JFK… which will be gone by September anyway. The majors are awarding regional flying to good companies because they want quality. The lowest bidder is no longer winning everything. Word on the street is that XJT’s new DAL flying out of LAX wasn’t the lowest bidder, but their quality is what was sought after.

So Mesa’s current contract is like this: pilots get paid for the average amount of time that it takes to complete a flight. For example… you’re flying a MEL’d, no APU, single PACK CRJ-200 that has dirt and grime throughout the flight deck between IAD and EWR. The average block time for that flight is say: 1:15. The pilots will get paid just that. You get ready to push back from the gate and the air cart needed to start the engines isn’t producing enough power. Delay #1. You push back, taxi out and get put in the holding pen for delays going into EWR. Shut em down. Delay #2. Finally, you do a crossbleed start, get them running and takeoff for Newark. You hold enroute, delay #3. You touch down in a cross-wind, work your magic and safely complete a flight with the skills that you’ve spend tens of thousands of dollars on to acquire. You navigate the taxiways to the gates… your certificate on the line with each possible turn and finally upon reaching the ramp you find that the gates are full. Delay # 4. Nobody at dispatch in PHX had the forethought to warn you about this or feels like helping out. Again, you apologize to the passengers. Finally you make it to the gate, 1:25 minutes late.


So lets recap. You just spent 2:40 as a crew member on a jet for a part 121 carrier in America. You were held responsible for the other 52 (or 68) people on board (with the captain.) If you were a first year FO you just made about $61 for that circus.

Next, dispatch/payroll/crew tracking will try to screw you out of the minimum pay that you receive by making the paychecks difficult to decipher.
You’ll only get 8 days off per month on reserve. Republic guys/gals get a minimum of 11 days off per month to see their families/significant others. You work on 13 bid periods per year. The math equals this: you work 28 days more than other pilots working under the same code shares. Again- you spend another month per year working. For less. Awesome.
Let’s see. What else. Everything there is disorganized. When on ready reserve (sitting on reserve at the airport, watching people walk by and eating expensive food) typically they notify you of a flight assignment for a flight that was supposed to leave 15 minutes ago. You go to the gate and all the passengers are boarded. You get on and everyone is staring you down. The other crew members are frustrated. Negative work environment.
Many of the reserve work days consist of two to three hours pay for up to sixteen hours of duty. What other industries can you think of that don’t pay their people for being at work?

This kind of disrespect robs your dignity and fuels your frustration. It wasn’t fun working with a bunch of disgruntled, annoyed crew members.

Contract negotiations are coming up this September and Mesa ALPA needs support. They need to get a contract that is no longer sub-par because they deserve it. However, even with a better contract I don’t think it will be a good place to work. Better, but still not preferable.

I COULD CONTINUE THE LIST BUT I DON'T WANT TO SWAMP ALPC'S SERVER. If you want more info... read up at www.mesahub.com

So what do you do? Boycot working at Mesa. Supply and demand runs our profession. If we continue to supply that management team with cheap labor the race to the bottom will continue. PLUS- everyone else is hiring. If you are CFIing, just wait a little while longer for XJT, Republic, Comair, Skywest. It will be worth it. They all have better upgrades than Mesa anyways! If you are considering the MAPD (Mesa Airlines Pilot Development) programs, look elsewhere. You’ll be happy you did someday. :)

I no longer work there and I am glad of it. My schedule is better now, my stress is reduced, and I am no longer lining Ornstein’s pockets. Sure, I gave up some seniority but seniority at Mesa isn’t worth much. If you are currently at Mesa, leaving could be one of the best things that you could do for your quality of life, family, well being and it will be good for your profession. If you are thinking about Mesa, not going there could be one of the best things that you could do for your quality of life, family, well being and it will be good for your profession.


I may not know you, but friends don’t let friends fly for Mesa. ;) PM me if you wanna know more.

If you want to add to this thread, make sure it's productive. I'm open to corrections, but as a pilot there, this is exactly how it was. We're trying to educate the new folks. Thanks!

I hope you are enjoying your new employment a lot more. I hope you get involved with your new pilot group to educate your peers about how important it is to stay united and not allow this sort of treatment. Unfortunetly when the option early on is to stay in a cessna or seminole a few months longer anything seems better, until you learn. There needs to be more people out there to mentor new pilots about the good and the bad. I would not want to walk into this industry blindly, so I try to help those new to flying educate themselves. No one person can do this, pilots have to take an active role in teaching the newer generations about the history of this career and that will really benefit all of us.

Good Luck

I'll vouch for N2's summary of mesa.

I could only imagine such $hitty treatment. Some people I know ***** about the ugrade time at Horizon but on your worst days it's still better than most. I'm glad you moved out of there. Like you said, choose a good company and not the ugrade.

Thanks for giving xjt the props we deserve. I am glad you posted, when i was cfiing i check out post like yours about mesa and companies like it and waited to get what i wanted.

Great post. I am guilty of what I am about to comment on, but if you can avoid going to a gojet or Mesa, wait the extra few months and find something that will benefit us all.

I went to TSA low-time because I was an intern and had connections. During my first month on the line, I can't tell how many captains told me get some flight time and then get out as fast as I can. At first, I didn't believe them. However, one and a half years later, I see exactly what they meant.

As long as there are people who will continue to fly for places like Mesa, gojet, etc., those places will continue to exist and hold us all down. I am sure it is a difficult decision to make, instruct or Mesa, but the majority of people on here will tell you to instruct for the extra three months or whatever it takes and get on with a good quality company.

I have a friend who flys for Mesa and he is miserable. He and I got our licenses fairly close to the same time, and he hates to fly now, because of MESA.

I am heeding the advice of my friend and N2, I am waiting fot something better, maybe if we work togerther Mesa and Great Mistakes,,,, I mean Lakes will both go down.

As a Mesa pilot, and one who is aggresively pursuing other options in order to escape this prison ASAP, I totally agree (although I would like to add that the Freedom debacle was not only pilots coming in off the street, but MANY of our "own" that crossed to the dark side).

I'm looking at starting over at another regional with 2-1/2 years of seniority here, 2000+ hours in the jet, and upgrade "right around the corner" because I'm sickened when I see that Mesa badge on my uniform. I'm repulsed by what it stands for...namely, the inhumane treatment of people. Also, at the very least, not getting paid for doing my job. I don't see my picture on my ID, but one of JO laughing and saying "I can't believe you all let me get away with treating you like this!".

So, let's add it up...2-1/2 years as an FO at Mesa, and let's hypothetically say another 2-3 years to upgrade when I start over at another regional. That's at minimum a total of 4-1/2 years of being an FO (at least). And to say that I'm not the only senior FO thinking about leaving is an understatement.

I won't be bitter about making the wrong decision to come to Mesa when I leave, but rather relieved (big time!). I'll realize that I put myself back 2-1/2 years, missed out on PIC time, more money, better QOL, etc. Yet I'll be able to look in the mirror and respect myself for doing what's right, and not selling my soul for upgrade. That's worth more than any PIC time I could have.

And on that note, I'm sure CFIse will pipe in to tell me I'm overreacting...:rolleyes:

Hey brotha I was the same way I left Colgan after 9 months and had to "start over" agian, but it made me appreciate XJT that much more, I would do it all over agian if I could, I see some of these ZERO TO HERO guys that went from PPL to 121 in 2 months and they dont appreciate it nearly as much as the guys that get abused at MESA/Colgan etc.............

How in any way is DISPATCH to blame for screwing you out of a paycheck?

I can’t speak for Mesa dispatcher’s professionalism, but a Dispatcher has Joint Responsibility for the Safety of every 121 flight. Why would a dispatcher be interested in screwing you out of money? I couldn't count all the times that I saved the CPT's butt from doing something stupid and likewise he/she saved mine from planning something incorrectly.

Dispatchers are your friends- Team work- it is a joint responsibility regulation.

Great post - I couldn't agree more about MESA except I have never seen a Dispatcher try to screw a pilot. :) - I have seen crew schedulers do some nasty things but most of the time it because there is some over paid director or manager forcing them to do it.

Also, to those who would be thinking about going to Mesa, just remember that Mesa is not getting new flying. And if they are, its not nearly as much as other regional companies.

They're going to be in a predicament very soon, which will quite possibly lead to them downsizing...and what does that mean for you? It means an increased upgrade time.

My old flight instructor is at Mesa now, and hes been there 2 years, with his upgrade "right around the corner". He's stuck there because he wants his upgrade, and yet he doesnt like the company one bit. He sat reserve / ready reserve for like 6 months. And I remember he wanted to shoot himself. He was ready reserve for 3 days a week, just SITTING there at the airport.

Also, I spoke with him the other day, and I was asking how his senority was doing, etc etc. He said that his actual seniority doesnt move very much at all. Most of the attrition from Mesa is people who joined it and are like, "wtf did i just do", and they leave. So....keep that in mind! (To decode what that means for those of you who didn't get it, I was referring to the people that are actually leaving Mesa in large numbers, were actually lower than him on the seniority list....so it didn't benefit him at all).

If your absolutely sick of instructing, and have SJS....go do something to take your mind off it! Go ask some random girl out that ya see walking down the street. Take her on a date or two, and next thing you know a month will have flown by! And hopefully that was another 75-100 hours in your logbook!

-Imp

WAIT WAIT WAIT!!!!!! Lets not forget China. Hope you like rice :D

Ah yes...Broccoli Beef. I should reconsider applying to mesa...

It seems that everyone agrees that MASA Sucks. Hope this will save a few pilots from becoming another "one of them pilots".

You think it would but it doesn't. They still just go after that job they can get the fastest. It almost happened to me. I am extremely burned out of what I am doing right now (aerial mapping) and almost accepted the invite to a interview when I was at about 575/75 but decided that it was not for me. First the pay absolutely sucked I would be taking a pay cut to go there even into the second year. The bases suck so it would be even more of a burden to have to move and rent a apartment (the par house is still free) or face a long commute. I thought about it for a while and just determined 3 more months of what I am doing now and I could have another 300-400 hours, pay for 25 more hours of multi and I could be at a regional that pays better and have a shorter commute or no commute at all while saving money still living at the parents house. And a year from now I will still be happy instead of being at a place that I will hate then have to apply somewhere else. Third I felt if I go to some place that seems sub par on wages and work rules it will just help show the majors that if they just lower their minimums and pay they too can get cheap labor. So the best thing to do is get your friends on here and let them ready about SJS and try to explain to them that quick is not always the best. So now here I sit still mowing the lawn in the sky living out of hotels and on the road 100% of the time but im happy knowing that im not hating life already on reserve in some crap town getting ready to fly some half broken down piece of junk for less than the clerk at the local 7/11 who was moping the floors. There is so much more to say but ill just concentrate on the mapping I have to do tomorrow and trying to figure out how im going to pay for those last 25 hours of multi.

One of my best friends is at Mesa and he just won’t lesson to why he should bail. He has been their since September and every time I speak to him I try to convince him to jump ship for SKW, RAH or XJT. He just won’t lesson, he’s convinced that he’ll upgrade around his 2 yr mark and after 1500 PIC he’ll be bound for SWA. LOL! He's like a brother to me and I can’t help him, I guess I just have to let things run its course. I feel that if I continue to harp I might damage our relationship. It’s sad; just married a beautiful little girl and he never gets to see her.

I was lucky, I had friends and relatives to help guide me through the rough waters of SJS and now that I’m at SKW I can’t thank them enough.

Let’s all continue to educate the blind and hopefully we can guide a few lost soles through that very same SJS water. Then maybe, one pilot at a time we can improve our industry.

Love the Hillary pic!!!

I spoke with three Mesa guys today and apparently they are losing 100 a month. They also had heard that there were only 40 resumes on the HR person's desk and that no one was applying. It SOUNDS like the word is getting out. I feel sorry for the knuckleheads who stick around. I guess camping out is much more fun than anyone of us can imagine? What a joke.

Oh and by the way, it isn't just Ornstein laughing at the Mesa pilots, it is management laughing at all of us pilots!!!

Hey 172capt, I like your analogy of us "mowing the lawn in the sky". Thats exactly what we do...every-freaking-day.

Im so burnt out, yet theres an end in sight for me! April 1st will be my last day shooting revenue! Hopefully we get based together before then =)

Yah everyday but I guess I cant complain about 6-7 hours a day except when the weather sucks. But then again I don't mind getting paid for sitting on the ground either.
Anyways I heard a rumor that mesa will not pay you for a cancelled flight. Can anyone chime in on this? Thanks!

I recieved an email stating that if I come to mesa, they "promise" me a upgrade with in 3 years!!!!

Did they also tell you that they "promise" to make you work at least 20 more days than most of the other carriers but yet you make less then them? Did they also "promise" to only pay you for the average block time while your sitting there with the ground delay or up turning circuts in the sky? Did they also "promise" that you will most likely end up getting your days off taken away while you are on reserve. Did they also "promise" a nice new comfy wait mesa a nice used comfy sleeping bag for the CDO? You can "promise" me a 3 year upgrade but all the other "promises" that go along with it that are more likely to be true I would rather not have.

You would upgrade in a year and a half at SKW, RAH and around the 2nd year mark at XJet with a better pay and better QOL.

BS! They are a union carrier, which means everything is done by seniority...there is simply no way to accurately make a prediction like that. If the people senior to you want that upgrade (and they will), they get it, not you.

Hey - people live their lives, I live mine. Heres another truth about Mesa.

I've been here about 18 months, the company has tried to JA me 3 times and succeeded twice.
I have been paid more than I flew - sure, I'd have been paid a lot more if we had block or better, but we don't.
I have lost time due to cancellations and re-routes, but I've also added time as "alternative" flying within my footprint was assigned to me. Overall it's been pretty much swings and roundabouts in terms of crediting less than scheduled. I've picked up a little bit of open time, but not much. Ask a United mainline pilot how their line guarantee works.
I can typically hold 12-13 days off a bid period - not great, but not horrible given we have 13 bid periods.
I fly with great people, I don't know ANYBODY at Mesa I wouldn't enjoy spending a bid flying with.

I've had horrible days at Mesa, but unlike the other people who like to post here I can put them in perspective and recall that they were few and far between. I can describe days when everything was a clusterf*!k from start to finish, and I can describe days when everything ran like clockwork. I've had a lot more good days than bad.

*I* wouldn't be happier somewhere else, because *I'd* have to commute, and commuting, no matter who you work for, sucks, and Mesa makes NO allowances for it whatsoever. I don't go out of my way for the company, because I choose to treat them like they treat me, so if you're looking for never-never land Mesa ain't it. But if you know what you're getting into, and you have a bit of maturity, you'll be fine.

It's not a great place to work, but it's not that bad and, truth be known, all regionals are abusive to the pilots and are looking to get the most for the least. Oh the starry eyed people just hired at Republic will tell you how great it is, but I know people at Republic and it's brethren and they've got their own set of complaints.

Upgrades are less than 3 years, they're going to get shorter before they get longer, and NOBODY, despite what they may claim, can tell you what upgrades will be like anywhere else in 12 months, just like I can't tell you what they'll be like at Mesa. SkyWest and Republic are both trying to manage huge growth right now, either could stumble and meltdown, as could Mesa. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Stand back - incoming.........

No Offense, I'm glad you're satisfied with 12-13 days off at the bottom of the pile. I've been at SKW for a year now and I've NEVER had a month with less than 14 days off. I also don’t think it’s worth just being satisfied at a bottom rung airline. Please, no offense. :D

I do agree that if you go to MAG, TSA, GoJets, and PSA etc; odds are you've heard the news about what you're getting yourself into, so don't *****. You chose it so suck it up or get the hell out!

Upgrade, nothing fluctuates more, it’s based on so many factors: airline growth, pilot group seniority, pilot group FLT times (some may not have the mins to upgrade regardless of if their number can hold it), pilot group preference (only want a certain domicile), attrition and many others. So when we hear of an upgrade time at anyone, regional or major, that's what the time frame is right NOW and only right NOW. If you just got hired don’t plan on what you see until your number gets called, it’s a cyclic industry.

12-13 days off is good based on the 13 bid periods per year, thats the same as 14 or more days off per month. the pilot group at mesa also rejected PBS which im proud of them for.

however, no matter how you look at it, you should never look at mesa as a good place to be. my brother has been there 6 years, he does not commute, and he gets beaten to death there. theres a reason "fix it or burn it down" and "sinking ship" are common sayings at mesa.

that being said, i think mesa is a great stepping stone to another regional if youre into that whole lateral move thing, and you start out with 250 hours or a commercial ticket or whatever they require now. other airlines LOVE mesa guys because they know how badly you are treated and how hard you work to keep that company afloat, and you end up loving life at any other airline because your QOL goes way up. ask anybody at a major, theyll say they love mesa guys for being able to put up with the things that they do.

You have brass admitting Mesa isn't that bad. I commute from STL to FAT and would rather do that for SkyWest than go back to TSA. With all due respect to the people who work there, places like Mesa should burn to the ground for the way people are treated. The vast majority of people I have met from TSA and Mesa have been great people. However, if you think that your union is going to change things with this next contract, I BELIEVE you will be sadly mistaken when it comes down to the wire. The next cup of Kool-Aid is on me!

I had heard that TSA is holding CASS over the pilots heads asking them for concessions if they want to be a CASS participant. Is there any truth to that? I expect that Mesa will be doing similar things as well.

every company loves having employees who think like that. its up to us as pilots to not get caught in that trap. just remember it can ALWAYS be better, you can think like that and still keep a positive attitude. always expect more

I do expect more, but can you specifically tell me what more you want from SkyWest? Perhaps a unified pilot group with the decency to vote NO to a pay proposal that left out X number of pilots?

absolutely. thats a start

You still didn't answer my question.

And, do you really think that if ALPA comes on property we will all of sudden be unified? In our case, we are our own worst enemy. Or, I guess the senior guys who voted for the pay proposal are our worst enemy!

pay is always going to be an issue but thats everywhere, a little protection from disciplinary action (im not a trouble maker or anything but still this is important), and things that relate to sapa and ive been talking with a rep for more clarification.

anyway that vote would have never passed if people actually voted! the voter turnout for that pay package was beyond low. this is what unification of our pilots could have avoided

I worked for mesa almost 2 years, worst 2 years of my life... Left for XJT with upgrade around the corner and havent looked back once. QOL is #1 upgrade domicle come in at a close second. I'd fly a cub if the QOL and pay was on par with XJT, dont let SJS go to you head... When I was on reserve here at XJT I had a better life style then holding a 14 day off lin at the $hit shack.

There is no pay for wx cancels....and they only pay Maint cnx's if thee is something like a 96% completion factor for the bid.
We do have CASS...sometimes...with some carriers...It functions about as well as MESA does.

Look guys, I think the #'s don't lie. I do have my good days as well, but they are far and few between. There are DEFINATELY more unhappy ppl at MAG than happy ones. So if your satisfaction means nothing then go right ahead. The line to H3ll sure moves faster than the one to heaven. Oh and for those of you that think I was one of the ppl that took this job because I couldn't wait, I wasn't I applied to multiple airlines with no calls for interviews. I was hired with over 3000 TT and 1000 Turbine PIC....doesn't make it right, but I needed a paycheck as my previous job vaporized. MAG was the only place that called for the interview and were hiring street CA's...so at least I would have a paycheck....now I wish I would have went back to flying 172's and waited for SKW or another quality regional to call because I wouldn't be about to lose my second job....this time by choice...or necessity I guess when you figure what you risk each day signing our mistake filled releases and climb into our mass MEL'd planes. So go ahead and apply and if any more MAG pilots are in denial about how bad your life really sucks there is hope for you to...just stop by the local psychologist.

Oh and for those of you working or considering working at Air Midwest, they are so concerned about their pilots they took the snack machines out of the break room in the maintenace hanger in ICT and placed some couches in there because they won't be setting up any more hotels for those guys doing maint. runs at night. You get to share the couch with your fellow crew members. Sleep tight!:mad:

Unity comes from leadership. If SKW were to organize and had good leadership the pilots (if they are like pilots everywhere else) would unify behind their leaders. The leaders will not be effective without that unity, they both go hand in hand.

I think those who voted for the pay proposal were mostly the junior guys. Certainly if the organizing attempt fails it will be because the junior guys not the senior guys didn't send in their cards.

You can add ASA on your list of airlines NOT TO GO TO WORK FOR!
I am a 10 year Captain there and have been through 3 base closures and 4 moves in 3 years. All of the experiences of the original post is a day in the life at ASA. Especially in Atlanta (which is where we are all forced to work)

I can't stand the Skywest pilots who say "the threat of a union is better than a union" because I think it is morally wrong (someone is paying for your threat and it's not you!) but with that said, If I were a young buck (or buckette) I would go to Chitaqua, Skywest, XJT, or one of the better airlines that some have mentioned.
Here's one other thing that no one mentioned. You don't know how long you will be at the carrier you choose. I know a bunch of guys hired about the same time I was who thought the regionals would be easy in, easy out. Then 9/11 happened and we all waited for 6 years before the "good jobs" all started hiring again.

It's true seniority is everything, but waiting a month or two to go to a better regional is good advice.

WTF? Why do you have to bring Great Lakes into the conversation? Oh wait, I guess you are a CFII MEI and you know EVERYTHING. I work at Lakes and I take offense to your statement. Ask any Lakes pilots if they happy with their decision to work here and more than 90% will say they made a good move (especially all of the Lakers that just interviewed at Southwest). I started on my 24th birthday and I will have ~1500 Turbine PIC by the time I turn 27. (I just turned 26 and I have 500PIC now). I am tired of all you CFI's and brand new SJS fo's thinking you are above the turboprop drivers. I'll explain in more detail someday when I am your captain at a major.

Flex

BTW I am rooting for you guys over at MESA and I hope something good comes out of all of this.

Thanks flex. Lakes is a great place. All of those guys did great from what I heard, and will be in SWA class soon. Had my app in there as well, but Mesa offered a class first.

We're trying to make things better here, and inform everyone who's "got a buddy" at Mesa, that it is what you make of it.

People are unhappy at every airline - this site is living proof.

All we can do is try.