90 Day wonder schools... just a thought.
 

I recently met a flight instructor that went to AllATPS and completed their 14 day CFI/CFII/MEI course. Although this guy knew his schtuff down pat I can't help but wonder how many people actually pass the checkride on the first go and how much information they either learn or retain as a result of such rapid training.......... just a thought.

Sooner or later everyone is going to have to accept that accelerated programs and ab-initio are how most prospective pilots will be trained. It is the byproduct of the shortage of pilots that we're already having at the regional level. So get use to it guys, cause it's not going to change, and it is the way it's always been done in Europe and other places around the world.

Mind you, I did it the old fashion way(fbo flying), but I have no doubts that those days will be soon gone.

well you can never tell with those guys.....

I just met an American Eagle FO that did ALL his training at ATP and he said it was the only way to go.

He was a great pilot and very sharp.......makes you wonder if these programs are worth another look.

Well, as a CFI I am glad to hear he knew his stuff, he should. My guess is that like most people who do programs like that he heavily prepared before showing up and studied the material that was sent. As an airline pilot I am glad to hear he was able yo handle the fast pace of training and more importantly hope that this person trains his students to the same level as himself.

Accelerated programs are not for everyone. The FBO route is great and has many benefits just as the fast 90 day or 14 days programs do. There are different types of people and we all learn differently when you break it down both candidates have to meet the same minimum PTS requirments. At which point the learning really begins.

Good Luck

By what standard are you judging here??? not to say the guy wasn't sharp but I noticed your position line under your name says PA-28-180??? are you even a regional pilot or just a GA guy? because if you are a GA guy what may seem sharp, high hour, knowledgeable ect. to you, is a whole different ball game to us....... food for thought.

The atp grads are probably qualified but they are overpaying bigtime. The hiring mins are so low these days that you don't need to CFI. You can do the training other places for less in not much more time.

ATP is *much* cheaper than many of the other pilot mills such as FSI, PanAm, Delta Connection Academy, etc...

Of the two accelerated program (pan am and atp) cfi's I have worked with, both were pitiful. Both damaged aircraft at this flight school, one totaled. I have only seen sub par training from these programs. Company policy now won't allow quick finish up cfi's to work here. Just my personal observation.

I instructed at a flight school that did accelerated training. The result rarely had much to do with the pace of the training program. Just as with the traditional way of doing things you have good and bad students, those that study and show effort and those that don't. The students that came prepared and gave 100 percent while training usually had no problems. I would rather work with someone everyday to get things done than once a week. Anyways, Some people are just not good at flying and may never be, no matter how much time you give them.

Yes but this is the perfect case of, "why the hell are you a professional Pilot" You people are missing out on the joy of flying, Christ.......... go out and shoot holes in the sky, go get a hamburger at some grass strip 2 hrs away, cruise over a river at 200ft in a J-3 thats flying, not doing steep turns until you are within PTS standards...............A lot of you guys have this dilusional vision that once you get an airline job you'll have the world by the balls................I hate to tell you this, but the only thing a 121 job does is make you miss grass fields, single engine airplanes and uncontrolled fields....................... I feel for you guys, you ZERO TO HERO guys in 3 months, who have never done "pleasure" flying you are in for a miserable ride................

I don't think any school will prepare you to be a CFI. You can memorize the FAR's and that's about it. For the first few students you'll always be learning more from them then they'll be learning from you.

I will say along with this, I never truly learned to fly until I became a CFI :)

How can you tell he was a great and sharp pilot if you just met him? PS-he only knows ATP so he knows of no other way to go.

Saab, that was probably the best post you've made here...but it's like trying to tell a teenager he's not immortal. Most won't listen until it's too late.

Ignorance is bliss =) They won't miss it because they've never known it. And they most likely never will, since they never really flew by themselves much, I imagine they probably wont be the types to go out and get a $100 hamburger, due to being uncomfortable solo, or without a more experienced pilot in the aircraft.

I remember a few of my favorite memories so far involve just what your talking about. Flying into fields to try out their restraunts, flying formation, small uncontrolled fields (also quite dangerous with some of the people out there thinking "they own that field", etc etc.

Ah well, I look forward to making new experiences in the 121 world too =)

Its so crazy I remember walking to the 172's while my students where preflighting wishing to GOD i was in the Embraers flying overhead lining up over MMU to go into EWR. Now every time (including this morning) as I flew over MMU I was looking straight down, wishing I was doing touch & Gos' Ill never figure it out

I've always said all I want is life is a descent income, a good woman, and a Stearman. While flying in the Merlin is interesting because it presents a new atmosphere. I still get bored while doing a 3hr flight in it. I've never gotten bored in a biplane. Of course it could be the Ag pilot I fly it with. Talk about hair raisers.

I agree that you will miss out by not living the airport life. I taught aerobatics for a while and I don't think that you will ever have that much fun at atp and guess what, it will make you safer. Landing on an 1800 grass strip will make you more skillful because you will have to be. A rediculously controlled environment with electronic hsi's, rj sims and great steep turns is a cookie cutter. Tell me how you would think for yourself when you are in a situation that hasn't been practiced in your frasca sim and you are the captain. How do you correlate? It's not steep turns and chandelles in the real world. You're missing all the fun and all of the valuable lessons that you could teach yourself if you miss out on real flying and go to atp or jet university or whatever the newest fad is. Learning how to truely pilot an airplane could actually save your life one day as well.

I think the thing that most accel programs miss out on the most is the anticipation of the day that phone rings for your first real interview. The flight down to the interview center, after putting in five years of work, for it to finally happen, for me at least it was a surreal feeling. I dont know how it would have felt if it happened just 90 days after i started training. It was kind of a feeling like you finally arrived, but at the same time leaving all the things that you had been doing so long behind, just to start on a new venture. Like the "saaborowski" said in different words, you always envy what you arent, and when you finally are, what you used to be.

When you do ACPP, all your training is in the "ATP bubble". End result, you get to an RJ ASAP.

For most, that is good enough, and all that matters. However, I find it sad that "working your way up" and "paying your dues" means nothing anymore. Before you scoff at this as a waste of time, consider that the process, while time consuming, turns out a better product in the end.

Leaving the "bubble", you're forced to learn about life in the real world. I think that's a great thing, even if it takes you six months longer to get the RJ job.

Where in Europe can you get done on 3 months? As far as I know it has never been done in Europe. Yes they have ab-initio programs, but getting through training takes 16-24 months. And currently you wont get far without a typerating or put the time in like everyone else.

All right a bit off......
 

Bit off the topic guys.... I just wondered what the pass rate was like... but my question had nothing to do with europe and the such. I don't mean to step on any toes but dang!

I used to cfi at a small school and the students and all the instructors would all met up on sunday night and fly to Hooters next to PVD. Nothing was better, a bunch of 40 to 50 year old guys all at Hooters eating wings and enjoying life, telling jokes, then going flying in some sweet planes. Life was good. Now I work at an international flight training center, where it's training all the time and half of these guys came from the same school. Most of the cfi's and none of the students have ever gone up and just punched a few holes in the sky. NONE OF THEM HAVE EVER LANDED ON A SOFT FEILD!!!! I"m for changing the PTS to include a real grass strip landing, there is nothing like that at all in the world. Too bad that most of these guys never experinced it.

Funny.....

I have been on grass fields, dirt fields, soft fields, rough fields, frozen runways with 3 inches of ice on them. Had over 150 hours solo when I got my CFI ratings at 300TT. I have nothing else to compare to, but sometimes I feel like some of the structure would have been good for me also. We will see when I make the next jump up from CFI.

Which company is that?

I'm a fan of dirt too. My co-workers and I would sometimes meet at a little casino next to a dirt strip in the middle of the desert near Vegas for breakfast. They didn't have Hooters waitresses, but you could get in some morning slots. Always a good time.

Maybe not in 90 days, but definitely in hours, I know 3 guys that got hired in Europe flying narrows with less than 500 hours. They did a little of bit of time building here in the states in complex aircraft, then they were gone.

Amen SAAB!

I'm sure there are dorks from all training sources, but why are ATP guys and PAN AM guys working at your flight school? Did they suck too bad to get hired by their own companies? Perhaps...

Stop singling out one school(or any other for that matter), every place has its bad apples. That includes instructors and students, if you want to get done quick, go to the place that does it that way. Otherwise, live with what you choose, and stop talking down about ATP. I work there, and I know first hand that it is not an all-inclusive "peachy" experience. But, it gets the job done in a safe, efficient manner.

just coming from first hand experience with those type of pilots

There is a lot of things I've learned since I received my commercial that are impossible to learn at one of those programs. Just experiece related stuff. Different seasons and different geographical regions=different types of flying a school just can't do for you. Challenging and exciting it's all been. If I could do it all over again I'd follow my same path. One of my biggest fears is getting into a regional or airline one day and not being able to fly a 172 anymore with any type of skill. I know it sounds crazy but I have fighter pilots and heavy pilots come wanting to rent our 172 and you'd be suprised how horrible they fly it.

Haha, being a CFI I know what you mean. They are two different worlds. That's why when I start flying for the regionals and IF I have the time, I still want to rent a C172 at least once a month to go get one of those expensive hamburgers.

Good luck doing that on a first year salary. The fact is a lot of us, if not most of us in the airlines haven't touch a general aviation aircraft in years. Some people by choice, others just can't afford it or don't have the time.

Two types of regional pilots, there's the guys that can't wait to finish a trip to jump into a their "pro-bono" cfi gig. And the guys that are just happy going to work and completely disconnect from it on days off. I'm the second, I get my kicks at work, and believe me, flying a VOR approach in IMC conditions in Mexico is more fun than anything I ever did in G.A. with the exception of the mile high club!

So it's a matter of personal choice, many of us just simply don't miss steep turns, hot cockpits, and student pilots trying to kill you. Other's see it in a different light.


Either way, enjoy it.

Pass rate at ATP is surprisingly not that high. From what I've heard and obviously it's not universal but about 40% of students fail at least one check ride. ATP students that go into CFI school have a good pass rate, street pilots that go into the CFI school have a low pass rate. I think ATP gets the smack mostly because people are ignorant of what ATP does. ATP doesn't cut corners, they don't hold hands, they offer exactly what you get at the local school. It's just for people that want to do it quickly as in fly 8-5 for 3 months straight, with out the FBO bull$hit. If anything pilots that come out of ATP are better because they have shown that they can handle an intensive structured training with airline procedures. Not to mention it's all multi with nation wide cross-country experience.

stop the madness!
 

I think the process of obtaining a CPL should be restructured. 90 days may be sufficient for the flying portion, but as i have said before, the academic portion of becoming a pilot is incredibly inadequate. I know quite a few of these 90-day wonders, and they fly as well as anyone. Its their knowlegde that lets them down. For example; once i came into my flightschool and there were 5-6 CFI's trying to understand a simple electrical schematic ...for a BE-76(!). These guys just could'nt figure it out. How would they? They had 90 days to complete a course. I think a pilot should be educated well enought to be ready to work, fresh out of the box. make it a 4 year BS, or incorporate some sort of 1y+ academic license/test that cannot be "gleimed". self study will keep costs down. Instructors need to be experienced pilots with proper pay. New pilots need to be paid properly (to factor in their investment and dedication). What kind of pay do you expect when you graduate from a 90 day course? what are you worth?

The only reason atp cfi's pass quickly is because the examiners are on atp staff. They even flaunt this in the magazine ads. I have seen their training as well as pan am's play out. I found just the opposite to be true, their knowledge base was great but these guys probably couldn't pass a private pilot checkride with a real examiner because their flying ability was so pitiful. 2 90 day wonders worked at our school=2 damaged airplanes (both cherokees)=no more hiring of quick finish up cfi's.

What school did/do you work at?

an fbo school in Texas. Eight planes and six instructors. Why do you ask?

Just wondering, curious to know if it was in Dallas.