Mesaba gets 15 more CRJ's
 

It was announced this evening that NWA will transfer 15 CRJ-200's to Mesaba from Pinnacle. We will also keep our lone 200 and get the other one back from Compass. Schedule has yet to be finalized.

Now maybe the freakin' contract will be pushed on a little harder.

Isn't it interesting that one of the four NWA executives appointed to the new Mesaba Board of Directors is Neal Cohen - the CEO of Compass Airlines ? :confused:

What I find even more interesting is that the NWA MEC has been directed to work with ALPA leadership at Mesaba and Compass to petition for "Single Carrier Status" with the National Mediation Board.

I am not even sure what it means! Seems like the NWA pilots want something and intend to bargain as a "single entity" (Mesaba and Compass included) for it with NWA management?

You think the same crews will fly the 200 & 900?

Differences Pay??

Not going to happen. We pay the same for Fo's whether saab, 200 or 900. Its not efficient as a company to do difference training for every pilot. Will the Saabs eventually dissapear? Yep probably, but not for a while. The Saab doesnt have to do much to make money, but it will eventually outlive its usefullness. No difference pay unless you are captain.

Does this increase the likelyhood of us newhires getting placed into the jet?

I believe there are some Regionals who do this. Mesaba procedures ??

Does anyone have th CRJ-900 pay scale for Mesaba? I seem to remember it being extremely low. I tried searching the forum but I can't find it. Their CRJ-200 pay is very low to begin with. I hope the CRJ-900 pay is at least decent.

This does make it interesting for a new hire expecting the Saab. Is there a realistic jet opportunity for the July class people?

© Copyright Morningstar, Inc.
Airline, pilots failed to agree on labor contract
By Jane Roberts
Contact
April 27, 2007
Pinnacle Airlines will lose more than 12 percent of its fleet because it did not get a deal with its pilots in time.
Starting in September, Northwest Airlines will take back two aircraft a month, presumably turning them over to Mesaba Airlines, which Northwest formally acquired Tuesday when the regional airliner emerged from bankruptcy.


"I'm certainly not happy about this, but our people run a great airline," said Phil Trenary, Pinnacle president and chief executive. "That's why I am confident we'll get another customer with larger aircraft."
Until late in December when Pinnacle signed a new deal with Northwest, it had been flying solely as a regional carrier for Northwest, shuttling passengers between hubs and serving markets that were more profitable for Northwest flown on Pinnacle's 50-seat regional jets.

The deal let it seek other customers. It also gave Pinnacle 17 additional 50-seat regional jets, with the stipulation that Northwest could take them back if Pinnacle and its pilots did not have a deal by March 31.

"Northwest made a threat; now they have to carry through on it," said George Hamlin, principal at Hamlin Transportation Consulting outside Washington. "Northwest won. Both the others lost. Pinnacle won't be as big and therefore will not have as many opportunities for pilots."

Because the planes were not committed to Pinnacle on a long-term basis, Pinnacle is entitled to the full amount of its unsecured $42.5 million claim in bankruptcy proceedings.

It plans to quickly sell it and apply the proceeds to the bottom line.

The company and its pilots -- some of the lowest-paid entry-level pilots in the nation -- have been negotiating since February 2005 and in mediation since September.

"We had made great progress as of noon on March 30," Trenary said. " ... I was real surprised when it didn't happen."

He doesn't expect layoffs.

"At our attrition rates, there won't have to be any layoffs," said Wakefield Gordon, chairman of the Air Line Pilots Association master executive council at Pinnacle. "We're pre-canceling thousands of hours of flying because we don't have the staff to fly them."

When Northwest announced its bankruptcy in September 2005, it grounded 15 Pinnacle planes, reducing Pinnacle's quarterly revenue projections by 7 percent and forcing it to seek voluntary furloughs.



Ok, first off i will chime in and say that I am not suprised with the announcement. I will also say that i am not putting much stock in a ANOTHER deadline that is 5 months away. Like you guys said it seems like there is a lot of stuff happening behind the curtains and it will only be a matter of time for it to come out.

I think i can say that almost every pinnacle pilot doesn't care about these 17 planes. like it says we have been pre cancelling hundreds of flights because we don't have the staff for it. Management wanted the money, and they wanted it now. I saw a note in the mem ops saying that we shouldn't worry and that we will secure more larger aircraft flying that will more than make up the flying we are losing.. all i can say is we better have a contract by then, or there wont be anyone to fly those planes either. Pinnacle pilots will not settle for a sub-standard contract to get more flying.

CRJ 200will be delivered starting september. There are two payscales for each aircraft, based on number of seats.
40-59 seat jet 60-76 passenger jet
3- $56.99 3- $60.71
4-58.69 62.52
5- 60.44 64.39
first officer pay is same regardless of A/C. it's year 1 ->$22.81, 27.35, 30.03, 32.71, 33.69.
Keep in mind the "soft money" is what makes a huge difference. 4 hour min day. Pay protectionnfor mx and wx cancellations. Block or better. 401K company match. etc. Don't focus on just the hourly wage, with any job.

These 15 CRJ's are like the child that nobody wants. XJ is already growing at max capacity with the 900's and 9E obviously doesn't have to staffing to operate them. Kind of ironic. Guess we can all expect to get our vacations canceled for the next year at XJ.

POSTED ON MAJOR; might get interesting discussion on Regional

Recent events (4/27/07)

Mesaba is out of bankruptcy.

One of the four NWA executives appointed to the new Mesaba Board of Directors is Neal Cohen - the CEO of Compass Airlines ?

The NWA MEC has been directed to work with ALPA leadership at Mesaba and Compass to petition for "Single Carrier Status" with the National Mediation Board.

Mesaba to get 17 CRJ200s + 36 CRJ900s, keep SAABS. Where do the ERJs fit ? One "little regional" all by itself ? Highly redundant management, training, maintenance, HRO, etc., etc. support required. Statements have already been made that Compass will use Mesaba support / facilities.

The new Mesaba Board of Directors has been named. Who will be the operations and management team ?

There's one in place at Compass. http://www.flickr.com/photos/compassairlines/

Food for thought. :eek:.

I just listened to the mesaba hotline.. kinda funny. He said the reason mesaba is getting the 17 additional jets is because of hard work and dedication. I thought it was because the pinnacle pilots aren't going to take sh!t anymore, and we let the deadline go bye without even blinking. IHATEMGMT is right, these are the planes no one wants, you guys will be getting 900's and 200's all at the same time. Its tough enough to hire right now for attrition alone, let alone attrition and new planes.. (just look at pinnacle and you will see what i am talking about.) we couldn't staff them, and i seriously doubt mesaba will be able to do it with all the hiring they are going to have to do. we will see.

I think the difference right now is that mesaba is hiring to fill future class dates, where as pinnacle has been hiring to fill classes only a few weeks away. My cousin got hired at 9E and was in class the next week. I think 9E fell way behind the hiring curve, and therefore does not have the man power to fly the routes that they are responsible for. There are many at Mesaba whose class dates arent for a another three months. Considering this company was in bankruptcy not too long ago, I think we have done a hell of a job of planning ahead.

Yes, I got hired a few weeks ago and don't have a class date until early July.

this is true, we did fall way behind. Even with the prospect of losing 15 planes they still cant hire enough. They are doing a good job of planning so i guess it is only time that will tell if they are going to be able to fill the seats. 4 planes a month for several months is no small feat. I hope they can do it so you don't have to go what we went through.

I think a contributing factor is the lack of effectiveness of Pinnacle's HR department. I had walked in, faxed, emailed and called in my resume a few months ago. I didn't hear anything back from them. Happened to several other qualified people that I know. If they treated most other potential employees like that, I am not surprised in the least about the mess they are in right now. Best of luck to the Pinnacle pilots....you guys will need it

The problem is you had too many hours... lol- sometimes I just don't understand how people can't get calls when we are "soo short". I have sent a few resumes in for friends and it is almost comical that the ones with 1200+ don't get an interview, but the 500hr guys do.. My only thought is that they are hoping by the time they have time to go to whatever regional they *really* liked they will be really close to upgrade at PCL so it may be a plot to slow attrition. Doesn't make sense though because we need every pulse with a commercial we can find.

The biggest problem is the stupid bridge program crap that a lot of the regionals do. I personally spoke with HR about a person that I have flown with and before even hearing the hours my friend had, they wanted to know if he was in a bridge program. I said no, and it was over. Tell him to apply online if he has 1000/100. I rebuked, asking how recent new hires with 250/25 are better than someone with 1200/75. They said it was because 9Es HR has toured MTSU and decided that they do a good job training pilots.

Nothing against MTSU, RAA and all the other bridge programs. But 250/25 is NEVER better than 1200/90. We see this at so many regionals. Getting a job is not about how good of a pilot you are. It is about how much money you spend. This industry is definitely moving to a pay for your job industry. It is becoming harder and harder to be old fashioned and earn your job.

A) Not saying that 250 hours is better, BUT, first of all, at MTSU we DON'T send 250 hour pilots to Pinnacle. I had the lowest total time of the bridge program hires from here, and I had 670/55 at the hire date, at which point I allready had an interview offer with ASA.

B) Second, a 700 hour pilot with glass cockpit training, CRM training, and FMS training might be more of a sure thing for them than a 1200 hour guy with no glass time and doesn't even know what FMS stands for. (Not that your friend fits either category, only defending the program).

I'm not saying that the program makes Bob Hoover level pilots or anything, I'm jsut saying that maybe the bridge thing isn't always as bad as some people make it out to be. I also think that there are probably a few guys out there that only badmouth bridge programs because they weren't presented with the opportunity when they were in school.

Bottom line, we're in a dynamic industry that is always changing and the hiring trends and flight training changes just as much, as it is required to, just to keep up.

And for what it's worth, I was offered an interview with Pinnacle in February long before we even had the bridge program up and working. I drove to Memphis and a friend walked me around and introduced me to everyone, resumes in hand, then they offered me an interview date on the spot. Due to the requirement to graduate first, plus after hearing I'm from a school they were devolping the bridge with, they decided to put me on their list for the bridge instead. Either way, I still got a job.

Never say never, my friend.

It very well could be that the low-time pilot with bridge program CRJ sim experience is better suited for a regional job than somebody flying around the patch in their own 152 for 1,000 hours.

But I agree with you that an HR department shouldn't categorically dismiss someone on the basis of NOT having gone through some kind of preferred (expensive) program.

Once again, the industry is always changing. The industry isn't old fashioned anymore, so we gotta change with it.

"and doesn't even know what FMS stands for"

Who cares? It ain't no thing. I had to learn it coming from the 727 to the 757 and, you know what, I'm dang glad I got to fly a real jet before one with an FMS. The FMS is no big thing, and you gotta go if it's broke.

The more experience guys have before entering this industry the better. All I know is 300 hours doesn't cut it....period.

Good point de. I had about 6 years worth of Collins FMS experience and the hardest part of training at my new gig was trying to unlearn all that while trying to learn Honeywell. I was wishing I had no FMS experience at all.

How did a Mesaba post turn into a 9E thread? Seriously though reading all these posts about low timers makes me feel like I am arguing with my dad over who is a better baseball player. Is Bonds better than Hank? God, yes, and why, because of technology. For Godsake, I probably have more NDB approaches logged, some to mins, does that mean anything? NO, why? Because they dont exist at DCA, JFK, DTW, LGA, I am a better pilot than you though, because I have a few more hours, but no CRJ training.

I will not argue with GliderCFI or Islandhopper (not sure who he actually is..) but I went to MTSU, and if I had not already been hired I would have had all the "requirements" for the bridge program. I was hired with just shy of 1000 with 240 multi. My sim partner had over 1500 hours and an ATP rating- he was "asked to leave" at sim #3 because it was just too much for him (more or less multitasking and situational awareness). There was another guy in my class with over 2500 hours with almost 2000 hours in lears that left around sim #7- I wasn't his partner but supposedly the automation was more than he could handle. In my opinion the difference between 250 hours and 1250 hours (about what I have now) isn't necessarily the ability to actually fly, or have situational awareness, or manipulate the FMS- it is experience to know what to do when you realize (with situational awareness) that there is something that needs to be done NOW so you don't get into a "situation" later. There were plently of low-timers in my class that got through the schoolhouse fine- we all learned the same stuff, but once they got to the line were they as much of an asset to the CA's they were flying with compared to someone who had more flight experience? I think that is the case. Flying glass is significantly easier (scan=look straight) and anyone under age 30 at this point in the game can deal with learning an FMS. I think my smartphone is more complicated than an FMS to learn! In my opinion the 2 hardest things to do in the jet are 1.) A VISUAL approach (dont do them often, requires a ton more mental planning and prep) and 2.) being a crew and leaving the CFI ticket in the back pocket- no matter if you have 500 or 2500 hours- the CA will teach you something whether he realizes it or not. Especially if he is a guy that has thousands of hours in the plane. My last trip I flew with a Checkairman and I learned a TON. He showed me a lot of little quirks and rules of thumb that made the job much easier. I have almost 300 hours in the CRJ and every flight I learn something new, but its not the basics that he (the checkairman) said he is teaching to new guys. IOE is to acclimate someone from a training to a real world environment, not to give basic instruction while acclimating someone at M.74. So I am not for or against bridge programs, I feel 9E's HR dept has their priorities in reverse order- they should go for the qualified apps, then if they are still short they should go to bridge programs. There are plenty of guys with 250 hours that will do better than a 1200 hour guy, but more times than not a 1200 hour guy will be a much better asset to the cockpit. Experience is priceless, thats why on a resume the focal point is flight time- not age, GPA, or any other differentiating detail. Talk about thread drift...

Yea- so XJ gets 15, we MAY be able to staff the 124 we are left with, and 9E lost them due to a contract deadline- a good contract would be nice to get!

The 300 hr guys is more likely to stay longer and except the less than mcdonalds pay, that's why they are more desirable. Airlines want yes men and people who take orders without question.

Higney85 explained this a lot better than I did. I am not against bridge programs if they are used properly. I went to Riddle. A school that has a bridge program with everyone in the sun. Hiring should be done by qualifications, then fall back on the bridge programs if supply and demand dictates it. There are guys that are in great University and Non University flight programs that are being bypassed by bridge program applicants, even though they have four year aviation degrees and 1000 hours of G1000 (glass) time, just because their school did not go and initiate these bridge programs.

I know a lot of guys that are great, that come from bridge programs, but more often than not they do not have any better training. Coming from Riddle I know that a lot of the FBOs and no name flight schools in the area were just as good, for a third of the price (which is what most parents look at when sending their kids to flight school).

As for the 650 hour guy being the lowest in MTSU history. Nothing against MTSU, becuase eveyone I have met from there seems to been cool. But this means that some recent new hires are lying about their times to friends. And why would someone lie about their time being lower?

Since this has become a Mesaba/Pinnacle debate I was wondering which airline everyone prefers out of the two? I know there are a lot of things to make you say well it depends on what you want, but I want to know which one everyone else prefers. I also wanted to know what to look for in work rules and where to look. I graduate in dec from UND and Mesaba is flying me down there on the 18 for my sim ride and pinnacle said this fall they would interview me. So how do I know which one is better?

which one do you want to go to.... For me it has and always will be Mesaba, but that is for reason of my own. which one will be the best? who nows, but Mesaba has been in the past and probably will be in the future, bankruptcy was NWA not XJ. I think eventually the only redtail regional will be XJ, but who knows, it only makes sense being owned by NWA

hahaha,,, you obviously know nothing about the history of nwa, mesaba, or pinnacle...
let me start by saying.. did you know pinnacle was owned by nwa just 7 years ago???

here is whats going to happen my friend. NWA has 2 regionals. Pinnacle and Mesaba. One day nwa decided to put the 2 regionals against eachother. competition was brewing. mesaba won. pinnacle was kicked out of msp, all the new avros and saabs were going to mesaba, pinnacle was shrinking every day. It looked like it was all over,, our fleet was reduced to rubble, everyone thought that we would be closing the doors in the next couple of months. BUT WAIT,, a new light was appearing,, OUT of the darkness came... NWA to save us. they bought us, and then treated us like their own,, all those new crj's were going to pinnacle,, they opened up msp again, they gave us 139 regional jets to fly,, IT WAS A MIRACLE!!!! Then just a few years later, 2003, nwa decided to make a couple dollars for their hard work and put out an IPO for Pinnacle. Pinnacle airlines was sold and become the number 1 regional for nwa. NWA made millions on the deal. life was good. but what about mesaba?? well, they weren't doing good at all. they lost all the rj flying to pinnacle, the avros were disappearing every day. mesaba was reduced to rubbel this time. Starting pay for the f.o's was going to be 11,000 a year after they paid for more than 60% of their own healthcare,, (remember guys when they said that??). Mesaba was in danger,, mesaba needed help!! BUT WAIT,,, Low and BEHOLD NWA comes to save the day,, It was another FESTIVUS MIRACLE!!!! Now that nwa owns mesaba they will get all the new flying, they will get built up,, and yes they will get sold. Then the cycle will repeat (this cycle has been going on since the days of the jetstreams, i am just replaying the last cycle for you). Then it will be mesabas turn again.. beat down till their is nothing left, pinnacle will prosper and it will look like all hope is lost for mesaba..

so in other words, being owned by nwa means nothing except that they will build you up, sell you, make money, then destroy you.. then repeat.

You *do* know that Mesaba Airlines declared bankrupcy on October 13th, 2005 while parent company MAIR didn't declare, right?

You gotta get your head out of the sand and quit drinking the kool-aid, man. You wanted to work at Mesaba and are happy there - that's great! Even with that, you've GOT to take the rose-colored glasses off and do some research on the last 5-10 years of Airlink history before you make such asinine comments in the future.

Funny thing was that Mesaba FOs were still making more than 9E FOs even when the sky was falling, and Saab Captain nearly what CRJ 9E captains. I know that's not saying much, but everyone loses is a correct prediction with the RedTail overseer. Why work an extended time at either place anymore when this is the future to look forward to; and now Compass to?

Good Luck!:(

First of all you need to read a little more into the post and realize that what it was intended to say was that NWA caused the bankruptcy of Mesaba. I never said mesaba wasnt in bankruptcy. Secondly I think you need to get off the high horse that you put yourself on. Thirdly, Yes I know that there are two redtail, soon to be three regionals. I know that NWA owned pinnacle (formerly express one) turned it into a profitable airline, then sold. I have no doubt that it plans to do the exact same thing with Mesaba. Point being that future is five to ten years down the road. About the same time frame in which most other airlines, including your precious AWAC will have cycled through back to the bottom.

Change your avatar, it's freaking me out.

I think what has made MESABA, MESABA is the people. Mgt a side, MESABA is a legacy regional (i'm coining the phrase) and our people are great at what they do. It's our corprate culture that has set us apart. I would like to see this continue with the newhires here on this forum. When the Redtails fight, the terorists have all ready won;) Quality pilots come here and we should be proud to walk through the concourse and not have to fend of snickers from other regionals. Our training is excellent and we are paid during taining and treated like part of the crew from day one! No Games like the other guys play. I'm not here "untill" something better comes along. I'm here 'cause I chose to be here. I NEVER blanketed HR departments with my resume. I came here to work. We 'are' better. Let's set the tone for the rest. Start by not bickering!

Seeee Yaaa!!

Amen, most other groups will never understand what you just said, and yes I will change my avatar, just because you asked politely.

As a new hire I must say that the people in the interview process have impressed me and made me want to work at Mesaba. I haven't started yet so those are the only people I have had contact with but it has been very positive thus far. I am looking forward to training in a few weeks and hope the same attitude prevails which I am expecting.

Now I have to tell my currrent boss that I am quitting in two and a half weeks and that he needs a new full time CFII ...