Compass vs. Envoy
 

Thoughts? Suggestions?
I have a CJO with both. Will have to commute either way.

Compass.

Envoy is a dumpster fire right now.

Titanic vs Lusitania....tough choice

I should’ve done a poll I guess. Looks like the choice is obvious already.

You have had 2 responses!! Your crazy to base your choice based off that, and this website!!!

Compass will be losing the AA flying. This will result in increased upgrade times. Envoy has a lower QOL but you will upgrade sooner, and have flow in your back pocket.
Another consideration as a commuter is travel benefits. As an Envoy pilot you have the same travel benefits as an AA pilot, including non-rev priority on all AA/AE branded flights over offline jumpseaters and non-revs. The AA travel benefits will also allow you up to 13 friends on your travel list in addition to the immediate family. The immediate family will also come before offline jumpseaters and non-revs.
If AA is on your target list, your time at Envoy will also count towards earning lifetime AA travel benefits... you can’t get lifetime travel on a mainline from subcontractors.
Then there’s the whole “all regionals are not alike” thing... which unless you’ve worked at more than one, or specifically gone on a side by side comparison may not be so obvious, but is definitely true. At some regionals you’ll be doing manual W&B for each flight, and at others they’ve been doing EWBS and ACARS for TOLD data for decades already. You’re also hitting at a time when the shortage is expected to draw the flying back into the mainline and their wholly owned regionals. Keeping the flying in house will keep the upgrades moving and the new hires coming to where the movement is.
Do your research carefully in this emerging market.

To be clear, I’m not the one wondering. I was just making a sarcastic comment.

Not enough info for a meaningful response. Single? Married? Kids? Living where? Can't move because? ATP? RATP? Age? TT? Any 121 time or 135 equivalent? Training failures? Civilian? Military? Where do you want to be in three years? In five years?

The only thing worse than predictions made on garbage in/garbage out is NOTHING in.

I think Cujo has a lot of valid points here. Envoy isn’t the top of the stack by a long shot but it’s one of the few that has light at the end of the tunnel. Life at a contract carrier can be tough every few years when they put the screws down because it’s CPA renewal time. Nobody at any regional is safe but I like to think that given the changing market a WO is the place to be.

That said, if you’re going to choose one today I’d go to one of the AA wholly owned. As of today, being on the west coast I’d still choose Envoy over PSA just for commutability. If you can move close to or in a PSA base, I’d go there. I would not goto Piedmont.

You're right. I didnt give enough info.

Married with kids. Cant move because in laws are older and not doing too well. Live in ABQ. Total time 2900. 700 Prior 121. No military time.

Cujo made some great points too. I've done a fair amount of research but I'm having a hard time.

Envoy said to expect an upgrade within 6 months. I'm worried about a bunch of FO's who are senior to me upgrading after I do and then I'm perpetually stuck at the the bottom of the reserve list. I do want to enjoy some quality of life.

Compass doesn't have this problem. I'll upgrade in seniority order, from what I understand. Will they be around in 2 years though? That's anyone's guess. People seem much happier there.

I feel like I'm choosing quality of life over possible longevity.

You're going to have an absolute **** experience at envoy commuting to reserve (the worst reserve rules in the industry) for years.

With that much experience, I would look elsewhere, possibly even outside the regionals.

I’ll admit my bias - I’m at Compass. I THINK we will be around for at least another couple of years but there are no guarantees at the regional level, as I’m sure you know since this isn’t your first rodeo. We are currently looking at slightly under 18 month upgrades but that’s deceptive because a few more senior FOs have been held back by company minimums because of low ME or RATP TT when they were hired. And yeah, we do (with a few exceptions) seem to be a particularly happy pilot group. But we do have the Delta contract expiring in a little over a year and the AA expiring in 2022. Will they be renewed? I think probably they will, but no guarantees.

Having said that, the Envoy NEAR DEC program might be better for someone with 700 hours already.

https://jobs.envoyair.com/part121/

You’d get a significant bonus and have 300 hours as an FO to get back in the saddle. And then, yeah, you ARE going to be the low man on the totem pole for awhile, not as bad as an actual DEC, but not great. But it probably would give YOU with 700 hours a faster route to the 1000 TPIC that is the nominal passport to a major and - because of that 700 hours - still get you to a major faster than you would at Compass.

From ABQ, I’d imagine the commute to DFW or to PHX would be pretty much a push. And while Compass pilots are a pretty happy bunch, I haven’t found Envoy pilots particularly antisocial or anything. I’d do my best not to stick around for flow though. Better to be at the beginning of the major retirement/hiring wave than the backside.

If you can get (commute) to iah or ord reasonably easy, and you can get an interview, I’d say XJT. I’m basing this on better reserve rules, QOL, and movement going to pick up soon. Still ahead of wave. Other two are a wash with way better options like SKYW too for west coast commute.

Don’t go to Envoy for sure. I have a classmate that left there after a year of perpetual reserve in LGA and ORD. Flew all of 160 hours in a year.

Give Mesa a look. You could choose either PHX or DFW on the CRJ, or IAH on the E175. And you can upgrade when you have the times. No waiting for your seniority to hold it. They actually let you choose which aircraft you want to fly when you sign the CJO. The CRJ bases are PHX, DFW, IAD, and SDF. The Ejet base is IAH.

That’s why I went with Mesa. I live in South Louisiana, so IAH is the closest regional base to me. 5-6 flights a day, and <4 hour drive if necessary. So I got to choose my base, I’ll upgrade when I feel ready, and I’ll still be based in IAH. No EWR or LGA junior CA bull*hit when I upgrade.

Send me a PM if you have any questions.

Actually at CPZ you’ll upgrade when you hit 1000 hours. Our last vacancy was only partially filled because FOs just didn’t have the time. We also do a lot of ABQ flying. When I was LAX based, ABQ is where I spent most of my overnights. If you want to get in and get out, Compass is a good move. If you want long term stability, it’s Envoy. Compass has a guaranteed west coast base whereas you will probably be commuting to LGA or ORD with Envoy.

True but only if he wants to, he won't be forced to upgrade at Compass...

When will we find out the fate of Compass?

I’m not sure but if you wait until the time you find out the fate to join you’ll be late to the party. Risk it for the biscuit.

On the other hand, those not yet on board aren’t really risking all that much. At a minimum you get a free ATP/CTP, a 170/190 type rating, and nine months of flying your butt off before the Delta contract is (or isn’t) renewed. You got a cheaper way of adding a type-rating and 750 hours of TSIC and 121 time to your resume?

What did your last rating and 750 flying hours cost you?

:)

I appreciate all the responses so far. I'm still trying to decide but its been helpful to read others experiences.
Thanks.

Why don't you come to Compass, get your 300 remaining hours... Take the first upgrade (likely bypassing), by then you'll know our fate, apply to the majors in the meantime. Worst case, you say thank you to compass for the 300+ hrs, 500 tpic, and ABQ overnights as we close our doors in a couple years. It won't be a waste of time.. I assume your goal is hours and then a major, not regional stability.

We compass homies don't recommend us for everyone's situation but I would come here if I were in your shoes. If you come here, you'll just be joining a whole pilot group of dice rollers.. It's working out for us so far. Only a very exclusive small group of people got a raw deal here, but they've been the exception.

You're also not gonna find too many people you don't like flying with here, for what it's worth.

usually BobbyLee’s area of expertise is in flight snacks and memes, but he is spot on here. Compass is definitely not for everyone but in your case OP I think compass is a great choice.

CP’s fate is far from certain, despite what some MQ and OO pilots think. Sure they could fold with the loss of their CPAs but that’s still a year or two away. It’s a gamble, but by then, worst case you leave with pretty close to 1000 tpic... which puts you in a much better place to move up IF they do close up shop.

Sure you could go to Envoy and upgrade fast but you’ll upgrade to perpetual reserve in New York with a who knows how long flow in your back pocket. Is a commute 3/4 across the country what you want for the foreseeable future? Not me.

Compass is a really ok company with good flying and easily the best co workers I’ve ever worked with... to include BobbyLee! Also, when I was there my three most common overnights by far where SJC, SMF, and you guessed it... ABQ.

Poser765
 

Haha, miss you around here homie! Hope the airbus life is treatin you well. I'll be outta here one day. I just need to recruit and train my replacement on the snack basket committee first.

Miss you, too, my friend...And your SO.

Yellow is treating my great. The guys here ain’t you guys, but still a good group.

Yeah man, forget the snack basket, it’s time to shine. Move on up!

A BLATANT attempt to hijack our snack basket auditor. :eek:

Whatsamatter Poser? Spirit not have any decent pogey-bait and you need the Snack Master to negotiate for the pilot’s group?

Seriously, glad you are happy there. Imagine you’ll even be happier when you are on SECOND year pay. :D

I’ve always heard that, but never understand why. What makes Envoy have the worse reserve rules in the industry?

I flew at compass up until February of this year. Take away the commute hell, and it was probably the best groups of dudes/dudettes you’ll find in the industry. Even the grumpy (and there were just a handful) were still pleasant to fly with. I also have friends at envoy and when I was at compass they’d text me asking “should I come to compass?” They aren’t too happy where they are now buuuuutttttt everyone is different. One mans trash....

Is compass vulnerable because they don’t own any of their planes and contracts are expiring? ***k yeah. Will you get a crap ton of flight time while still having a great time? ***k yeah. Will you enjoy the flying while making jokes with your captain about losing the contract? ***k yeah.

Also - snack baskets. ‘Nuff said.

Nobody at compass is looking to be there forever. Get in, get out, get ahead, CPZ College. Regional life is meant to be fun while building your resume. I’ve found compass gave me both. I was there for just over a year and now I’m at my dream job.

Did compass help me get to where I am now?

***k yeah.

I would go with a wholly owned, probably Envoy, as you live in ABQ. There are many, many regional folks that appear to check all the boxes for the majors, but just don’t get the call. Who knows why, but if you were to land in this group down the road, the flow-thru is a guaranteed (as good as any guarantee in this biz) ticket up and out . The regional life is tough(I did it for 10 years), and not a place you want to be long term!!
Joe

If you have a degree and a clean record I would avoid Envoy at all cost, especially as a commuter.

If you anticipate more than a few years at any regional then your choices are much fewer for any stability.
Any wholly owned should be a first choice, I’d do Endeavor first, Envoy second, PSA third... even PDT; then both Skywest and Republic.
The smaller places will go through attrition based shrinkage, eventual mergers-consolidations and bankruptcy buyouts.
As hiring gets harder for smaller places it’s hard to upgrade or even hold your seat when not enough are coming in behind you. The mainlines control the flying. They aren’t going to starve their WO before taking the flying back to their own regionals.

PSA has a better QOL and pay right now, but Envoy is in negotiations to fix theirs. Oh, and even Envoy DECs are not automatically getting NY currently, so that isn’t an automatic as somebody had earlier alluded to.

If you’re going to commute. The WO travel benefits are better, and if it comes down to a compass guy or a ENY-PSA guy getting on anything AA/AE the compass guy is SOL. Same with Endeavor and Delta. Little things like getting your first commute choice add up to QOL over time.

Don’t forget a ****** ton of people commute out of ABQ.

one small point. As a compass pilot, he’ll have a higher priority for the jump seat over any AA/WO pilot on a compass aircraft.

Where are junior captains going? I can’t imagine they’re getting DFW, or that ABQ-ORD is a better commute than lax.

Own metal always holds first slot for jumpseat. Nothing new there.
How many D3’s do Compass guys get on AA/AE? WO pilots get 13 friends or other relatives (not including spouse, children & parents) they can give D3’s to. How many years at Compass before you get lifetime travel on AA/AE? WO guys with 10 years and age 55 get it... and your time at Envoy/PSA/PDT counts towards the 10 years when you transfer/flow to AA without any interview, medical or tests required. Just go to class.

They’re getting all 4 bases currently according to the Envoy threads, with very short waits for transfers it seems.

Just answering the guys question. I’m not a regional guy that needs new hires to keep coming behind him in order to upgrade. No skin in the game beyond passing on many years of experience commuting; and the advantages of being from a WO vs a contractor. I’ve been the guy to get on the 73 for the ride home while the Republic, Compass, TSA guys got left behind. Commuting is easier for a WO guy.
How do you list for AA brand flights? MyIDtravel? Envoy guys use the same listing tool as AA pilots. Use the same app for checking in, seeing standby list and available seats. You know if you’re getting on well before getting to the gate. That can be important when there are two commute choices at roughly the same time.

All regionals are not the same. They really are different. The similarities often end once you’re off the plane.

A final point is crashpads and hotels are much cheaper in Dallas and Chicago than in L.A.

I miss spoke earlier...not only do the get priority on jump seats but I’m pretty sure they get priority non revving as well. On company metal. If his commute is on cp jets he’s getting on unless he is bumped by another compass rat.

I’ll grant you their non rev, in general, sucks. Not even an peep of argument. So if that’s a problem for someone, they should consider that. I don’t non rev except for my commute, and the only direct flights from home to base were cp birds. My commute was as close to perfect as one could get.

We used to use myidtravel. That changed to an internal AA web application. Can’t remember what it was called but you could list, check in and check loads/see standby list...more than the smiley face.

My ORD Crashpad was not MUCH cheaper than my LAX pad.

I don’t have any skin in the game other than helping people get as accurate a picture as possible. Compass is not the best option for everyone, and neither is Envoy.

Yes this is correct. We have priority over any JS'er and any AA/WO nonrev on Compass metal. For mainline and other AE planes, we do not.

I’m not altogether sure anyone HAS ten years at Compass. Damn few, anyway. 700ish pilot’s in the group, about 20 a month move on to their next job - do the math. The ‘loiter’ time at Compass is only about three years.

Get your type rating, then fly 75 hrs a month for 15 months, upgrade, fly another 15 months, and move on.

If you are looking for a long duration AT a regional, there are many better options than Compass for those who like REGIONAL flying. If you are looking to get time and move on, not so much.

Well said homies.. Yep we her' at compass eat snacks and fly out contract. Then punch out to the majors

https://i.imgflip.com/3122hz.jpg

I’m dead! Why I love the people at CPZ 😂

For what it’s worth, it seems that a lot of people from Compass move onto the big 3!

Just a guess... I have not idea because I'm not at Compass. But it might be because NONE of their pilots are using flow as a crutch and are working to get up and out of there.

I can't say how disappointing it is, as a pilot of a WO, to see how few of my co-workers bother to update their apps.