College degree and 1000 PIC gold again.
 

Don’t have a degree, go to school and sit this out. Enjoy college, it’s fun. Don’t have 1000 PIC, work on that. Both these will be gold whenever anyone starts to hire again. Took a short cut and don’t have one or both?, start working on this. Industry reset, party is over and majors will be 2010 requirements/preferred exp. Good luck. Have both? Congrats and welcome back to the front of the line! These events in our industry happen a couple times a career, use this time off to make yourself a more desired candidate.

and "get a degree in something useful"

BA in Runway Safety probably not it...

Colleges are all closed except for online. And if you’re not a Capt now, how are you going to get PIC? Everyone is talking about downsizing.

I think moving forward college degrees will become less important across many fields. Get one if you want one and don’t mind the insane debt. Get one if you can manage the workload of paying out of pocket while working full time. You certainly don’t need one to make a good living.

I second this.

There is a work-around on PIC.

Get some turbine PIC in anything (1000 hours preferred, 1500 if possible). TPIC in a 'van, etc will not get you a top-tier job.

But combine that with some 121 glass jet SIC and it might do the trick. So if you're a junior regional FO and hitting the streets anyway, I'd look to places like Empire, etc.

135/91 TPIC + regional SIC is better than no PIC, and allows to at least apply to any airline which has a PIC requirement (that may be coming back for a few years).

I think that society places too much emphasis on a college degree. If you’re going to into law, engineering, or medical school, it provides an essential foundation for more advanced training. If you are going into sales, service, or any of the trades it just isn’t worth the money. Vocational schools provide excellent training. The legacy carriers still think that it’s a big deal though, so if you want to work for them, use this down time to make sure that you can check that box. None of them will be hiring for several years now anyway, so you have the time.

Dumbest post of the year so far? College is whatever, you need it to work at United don’t need it to find a job. 1000 pic? Everyone is downsizing and going to furlough.

Yea I mean, I’d argue that money spent on college could be better spent on investment real estate or other ventures. The downturn we’re about to experience will bring a lot of opportunity for those of us that are ready for it. Just like it’s done the past couple times. I’m looking at investment properties and businesses opportunities in the next 12-18 months. Plus, I’m personally not even sure I want to work for a legacy...

The legacy business model is heavily reliant on corporate travel and international travel. I think in the short term that international travel is obviously going to take a hit and long-term there will be far less businesses sending their employees traveling. Every 10 years something seems to happen to the legacies. Maybe they pay the most because they are much more prone to the boom and bust. I’d rather have a job making less every year but with a business model that is less susceptible to the whims of wall street or some guy in China eating a bat for lunch.

I think the last month has shown that you can’t make yourself too competitive for a job or too diversified in your job options.

I would say diversification is key. Most millionaires aren’t so because of a single income stream. You need at least 3-5 in my opinion. The more the better.

I think a degree is pointless other than it’s what the majors want right now. My guess is in a year or less everyone will be hiring at the same pace they were just a month ago if not more since we will be deeper into the retirement boom. 1000 PIC will be valued no more and no less than it was just a month ago as well. Also, not saying don’t get a degree, but financially it’s probably not a good idea to spend thousands of dollars at this point in time if you think there’s any chance of a lay-off or furlough.

Do you really think that the global economy will recover from this that fast? Shelter in place orders are going on all over the world, businesses are going to fail from loss revenue, and not just the domestic, but the global economy is going to be hit hard. How can we have several months of this and be back to where we were in a year or less? United has already said that they expect our current reductions to intensify and last several months, followed by a slower than hoped for recovery, and a smaller company as a result.

stop it. You’ve been counting down the days to your flow since you got to your regional. Don’t act like if your number came up tomorrow you’d have to think about whether you were going to bypass or not.

The key to real wealth is being a successful employer. There's no better way to generate income than by making money for each hour that another person works on your company's behalf. The challenge is to minimize your risk; many businesses require a substantial initial and ongoing investment, which will always be at risk when the economy takes a dive. And believe me, there's no more difficult or time-consuming job than running your own company. It's nearly 24/7, and when someone calls in sick, or the bank screws up payroll, or your office Internet goes down, or the client arbitrarily changes your deadline or refuses to pay for services rendered, or one employee claims they were harassed by another... Guess who deals with it? You do. Speaking as the founder and owner of a 40-person company, these are just a few of the things I deal with constantly. I have probably aged 15 years in the 7 since I started my firm. As an example, just this Saturday morning, I received an alert that our bank's online wire transfer system had crashed. Payroll was due today at noon for processing, otherwise my people wouldn't get paid Monday. So I had to race down to a local branch -- closed due to Covid. Did 90 mph to get to an open branch. Made it in as the last customer -- since the bank was closing early due to the shelter-in-place order here in the SF Bay Area. Just made the cutoff by 5 minutes. That's what a weekend is like when you own a business. By comparison, my flying job, which I love dearly, is orders of magnitude less stressful and more enjoyable.

Real estate can obviously generate substantial passive income, but most novices think it's much easier than it is. First, if your property is financed, it's almost impossible to generate positive cash flow,; the best you can do is have your rental income cover your mortgage (which indeed builds wealth through equity), but it'll be a long time before you actually see positive cash flow. Second, the costs add up: property taxes, insurance, ongoing maintenance (groundskeeping, pest control), unexpected maintenance, HOA fees if you own condos, losses from unpaid rents, court costs for evictions, utilities, and so on. I own 11 rental units in 2 states, and if all goes well (ie few evictions, no major maintenance issues), I'll be happy if I can clear 5 % on my investment every year. That doesn't count price appreciation but also ignores the risk of price crashes, like happened in 2008-09 and is about to happen again. And it also sucks up your time. Even with a residential property management company, you're still having to expend time and effort just managing your rentals. It's not really 'passive' although many people call it such.

So yes. Multiple income streams are highly advisable. They're just really difficult to construct.

Would you mind sharing what type of business? Also, I find it different for people who had good jobs/business owners who decided to fly as a second career. Most of those guys are happy versus some of us who have done this forever.

Of course I would. I never said I wouldn’t. But I’m also not going to wait on a flow that may or may not exist on the backside of this.

All of my properties are financed and I’m averaging about 8% ROI YOY. Almost 12% on one property. But like you said those type of deals are almost non-existent in today’s market. But in 12-18 months? I think there will be a lot of opportunity.

Sounds like an absolute ongoing prison sentence! I serious would rather make $60K as a
regional FO than $500K doing that!

Enjoy your $60k. You earn it, but don’t gripe about your landlord who drives a new Porsche. He earned it too. The point is financial security comes through continuing hard work and will never be stress free

Nope and I never would gripe about it! Life is just way too short to have such a stressful job. Just be be clear, I’m not knocking the other guys choice, and sorry if it appeared that I was. It’s just that for me it would not be a good fit. Earning my living from flying while still a job, is one that I can be happy with...on most days at least.

Or you can hire a manager for $200K and a helper for $100K, and net $200k for doing almost nothing.

Or bank $200K for ten years, that's $2M, and then live off the interest/capital gains (5% = $100K).

"For doing almost nothing" -- hah, as if that were possible as a business owner. If you've owned a business, you'll know that no matter how many people you hire, the buck always -- always -- stops with you.

What's also missing from your calculation is the risk you take, personally, as a business owner, for anything that happens during the course of business. Sure, we have business insurance -- which ain't cheap -- and I have an umbrella liability coverage on my personal assets. Corporate veils can always be pierced by a lawyer who's determined enough. I think what people miss when they talk about business owners is how much personal risk they're exposing themselves to.

As for your investment calculation: 1) A guaranteed 5% pretax return would be a strong performance. Where do I sign up? And 2) you're neglecting the effect of income taxes on that $100K. A $2M nest egg, IF it yields you reliable 5% returns, will put perhaps $65-$70K/yr, after taxes, in your pocket, if that's your only income.

Sure. Of course, by posting this I'm pretty much revealing my identity to everyone at my airline, but whatever -- it doesn't matter. I run an advertising and design creative agency. The strong points of that industry are that you literally have to invest almost nothing upfront. You just need office equipment (laptops, monitors, and of course an espresso machine!) Everything else is a recurring monthly expense, like office rent or labor compensation, that can scale up and down with your business, to an extent. All of your 'assets' are the ideas and talent in the people you hire.

The downside? It's a very cyclical business, like the airline industry. When recessions hit, the first thing clients cut is their marketing/ advertising budgets. And, it's a very demanding and time-sensitive industry with clients who think nothing of texting you at 9 am on a Sunday asking if you can meet that evening to discuss changes to some ad you just released.

The other downside is that it's quite a high-priced labor market. I'd say the average comp for someone with maybe 8 years' experience is around $180K, and to that you have to add unemployment insurance, worker's comp, paid time off, healthcare, etc etc. Figure a total cost to the company of perhaps $210K for someone in their late 20s/ early 30s. That goes up significantly from there. Our payroll right now is about $550K/month. (That's not a typo, It really is north of half a million per month.) And that's not counting office rent, Internet, computer supplies, travel costs, employee lunches/ snacks, accountant, legal fees, business liability insurance, errors and omissions insurance, and about 1000 other things I'm forgetting right now.

And finally, it's a very, very, VERY hard industry to break into. I worked at global advertising agencies for 20 years before I gained the experience and business contacts to get to the point where I felt able to start my own. For fhe first year it was just me and my fellow co-founder, working at our kitchen tables. Then we landed some key projects and it just took off from there. Now we're 40 people. We were 45 a few weeks ago but we had to let 5 go, which felt like a knife to the heart.

I'll tell you this, though., I would MUCH rather have one job: airline pilot. It is so, so, so, SO much easier and more enjoyable. Well, most of the time.

You're doing a 12% cap rate on a property? That's incredible. Are you including price appreciation in that?

We're at 5.5% on two properties in PHX with no financing. Searched for 6 months across multiple markets and never saw anything close to 8%, let alone 12%. Now, if I looked at the total return rate including price appreciation and rental income for my third property in CA, it's averaged 15% every year for the past 9 years. But that's only due to the ludicrous price appreciation (more than 100%) over the last 9 years. If I only looked at cash flow, it's more like a 3% ROI.

Which, of course, is still better than the 30% destruction that's happened in the markets these past weeks.

Lesson learned. I should have just blown it all on women, gambling, and alcohol. I mean, seriously. I would be poorer but happier ;-)

That's why I didn't go cheap on management... if I'm paying someone $200K (pay and bennies), and providing support staff for the manager, I would expect not to get bothered much. That's the point. A weekly or even daily written SITREP, maybe a weekly call. Interruptions only for very urgent emergencies which require some action on my part (need to delegate some authorities to the manager). Have to dampen your inner control freak.

This assumes you don't have grand aspirations for expansion into new arenas, just growing in the niche and making money. If you want to take over the world, yeah gonna have to do that yourself.

I know all about it, BTDT, have the umbrella.

I would argue the risk is not insurmountable, I would not do ANY extracurricular business if the fruits of my and my wife's W2's were also on the line.

IF you're careless, a lawyer might pierce the veil. Have to be pretty disciplined if you expect it to hold up, but that's the nature of business.

Probably the most common way to screw it up is by mingling business and personal stuff early on in the life of the business... may be hard to ever undo that. Best to start clean from day one, rather than working out of your garage and personal checking account.



I was comparing gross to gross (based on his $60K gross regional salary). Of course I know you have to pay taxes, and so does a regional FO.

My personal investments, on long-term average, have exceeded 5% annual. I was using 5% as a conservative value for the long haul. The Dow on average does close to 8% (long term).

Very inspiring, thank you. I don’t know if I’ll ever scale up to that level but it’s something to strive for.

You made this same thread a few weeks ago. Why are you so concerned about this topic?

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I think it depends on the type of business. I fly with a CA who has a dry-cleaning shop; he operates it mostly as you describe. But in my industry, cliients demand high-touch contact from the agency founders. I work pretty much 13-14 hours/day and a great deal of that is one-on-one or one-on-few interactions with senior clients at Fortune 50 companies. There's literally nobody else at my company who could play that role. Replacing myself in my own job is one of my top priorities but it will be a long search.​

​​​​​​Yup. But in this business, if you don't expand, you die. Clients always want to hear about the new clients you just won. It adds to your perceived value.


True on all fronts. In most cases, good corporate insurance, plus umbrella coverage and a disciplined separation of assets will protect most businesses against most potential suits. But there are certain areas, like California employment law -- ask me how I know -- where one disgruntled person can cost you tens of thousands in legal fees and years of investigation, even if (as happened to us() you are found to have acted appropriately and the case is dismissed.

Like I said. I should have blown it all on girls, gambling, and gin.

Well, if you have the spark, then go for it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained ;)

I believe it will. Maybe not quite back to the levels it was a few months ago, but close. The initial hit is much worse than 2008, but the difference is that the economy was very strong before Coronavirus. 2008 happened because the economy legitimately sucked. The recovery will be much quicker than 2008. I’ve seen economists argue both sides so who knows. It will still be a quicker recovery either way.

It might take a little longer for the economy to catch up to where it was, but I’d be willing to bet hiring will be back in full swing by next summer or earlier. If this drags on past this August or September then that’s a different story, but if we’re on the upswing by June I think there’s a very good chance at a quick recovery.

Personally, I can’t see these lockdowns going past September. I’m all for the lockdowns now. But if it goes past September then most likely a vast majority of the population will get the virus if it has that amount of time to spread. That would basically make these lockdowns absolutely pointless. What’s the point in shutting everything down if everyone is going to get it anyway? That’s what the lockdowns are supposed to prevent right?

The lockdowns are meant to “flatten the curve”. Reduce infection rates to a level that the healthcare system can handle over a longer period of time.

I know that. That’s why I said I’m for them. If it does flatten the curve I don’t see how we will still be on lockdown in September. If it works we should be on the upswing by then. If we’re still on lockdown in September, I’m saying the curve will most likely not be flattened if it takes that long by how fast it’s spreading right now.

Not to mention it sounds like we could be having a breakthrough in medicine and/or a vaccine any day now.

GREAT idea actually!

I agree lockdowns won’t last till September. But they will have some effect and likely prevent thousands of deaths. Most epidemiologists agree a large percentage of the population will be exposed at some point, even before a vaccine is developed.

I have 2 properties purchased just after the bubble burst that have climbed exponentially in value/equity and are both in incredibly hot rental markets. They command a lot more in rent than I would ever pay lol.

My point is that this opportunity will come around again. Soon if I were a betting man. Despite some stimulus I think the economy on the other side of this isn’t going to be very healthy and you’ll see a large uptick in foreclosures and distressed properties. I don’t think the foreclosures will be as severe as after the bubble burst and there are speculative corporations going around right now offering people cold hard cash for their properties at a discount. So it won’t be the same kind of feeding frenzy as it was last time. But for those sitting on cash rubbing their hands together this may be the last big opportunity before I get too old to want to bother with it anymore...

The economy was strong going into this, but most likely won’t be coming out. Businesses are already shutting down and lots of people are either already out of work, or soon will be. I’m sure hoping that you’re right and I’m not. Due to the flattened curve, our time in the curve will be longer and recovery slower.

Just waiting for a paid leave offer to come down the pipe, then I'll enroll and collect the BAH from my GI Bill as well as hopefully finish the degree.

Or if no paid leave offer happens, I might do a Voluntary leave and do the same.

Luckily, I've had this nagging feeling in the back of my head for the past year that things were going too well so I started stockpiling cash. I hope ya'll have some substantial savings as well.

I hate for anyone to be out of a job or losing a business. I do think however though that if the need was there before, then the need will be there again. So while a lot of businesses will close they will be replaced. Especially if the current administration's push for less globalization of resources and industry comes through. /not starting a political war, just saying.

In this industry, that's the first thing you should do when you start making any money at all.