Poll: Furlough Options
 

Company comes to you and says, "we have to cut pilot costs by 1/3 from monthly guarantee. We have three options, which do you pick?".
https://i.postimg.cc/J435s847/Screen...t-13-32-55.png
Note: The larger the furlough numbers = larger down grades. ie guarantee but at FO rates.

The company forgot to tell you that, in three months, they'll furlough 33% of the company anyway.

Yeppers! I might entertain reduced guarantee if there's snapback provisions if they furlough (if the union lawyer says it'd survive a BK).

The real kicker is to believe we have any say in the matter. Regional unions, at least from my experience only give the perception of choice. The company already knows what it will accept and let’s the union feel like they earned it. Keeps the wheels greased.

It’s just a thought experiment.
so far it is interesting that that nobody had picked the middle road of some reduced pay and some furloughed.

Full pay (rate) till the last day. I don't think guarantees or average line values are pay rates though and would entertain a lower guarantee, 50 hour leaves, and the ability to straight drop trips/reserve days below guarantee. Lower guarantee is self correcting even without a snap back provision, because it decreases pilot productivity. In any sort of recovery every company will be begging for higher line values.

Interesting to see how many “union employees” are willing to throw their more junior coworkers under the bus in order to keep their paycheck where it is. #screwtheyoungerguysgivememymoney

If we give concessions it'll take a decade to get the pay back plus they'll furlough anyway

Always been that way, always will be.

There are good reasons and bad.

This is the good reason, learned the hard way the last time around. They'll take your concessions now, enter BK next year, take even more "concessions", and furlough who they want to anyway.

The only safe way to help out is to take a voluntary INDIVIDUAL LOA or IL.

Now with all that said, I think people who pick up OT while people are on the street are scum, but nothing you can do about if it's in the contract. At least until the BK judge gets done with it.

This right here. Envoy gave concessions up the wa-zoo and it just recently got some watered down version of some of them back. Once you give something up it ain’t coming back, not without a fight.

It drives me crazy that the pilot groups are always the ones bailing out the company. Why does that always have to be the first knob they turn? My guess would be that traditionally it has always worked.

What about a regional FO with a family still trying to pay off his/her instrument rating? (Assuming someone that “fresh” made the cut.) Is that still considered scummy? First rodeo, honest question.

Everyone always has a good reason for picking up open time in all kinds of situations. It’s never going to change.

By that are you meaning picking up open time is always scummy?

For every 75 hours of OT picked up on a regular basis, the company could justify not bring back a furloughed pilot. So, yeah, still scummy.

No one furloughed? I wouldn't call that scummy.

So if they lowered the Minimum monthly Guarantee from 75 to 50 and didn't furlow anyone and you picked up open time would that be scummy or not scummy?
What if you picked up open time from another crewmember who needed the day off, instead of from company open time? Scummy or not scummy?

Makes sense.

Open time from another crew member is a trade, it's not open time by definition. Are you even a pilot?

not scummy.
I’d image if any pilot group agrees to a lower min G they would tie it to a date or metric for snap back.

Full pay to the last d. And im junior AF.
A couple of reasons:
Neuters the capacity for the company to water the Ts&Cs down.
Rip it off quickly allows people to move on. This is analagous witht eh underemployment debate that rages when unemployment figures are analysed.
Finally I would suggest there is a level.of discomfort for the company when it throws newly minted piots to the streets bonus and all. They effectively become free agents and help drive positive change in the free market.

Where energy really needs to be placed is in the furlough procedures and protocol. Is it merit based? Or is it puerly based of seniority? Point being it needs to be leant into...not picking up open time etc.

Depends. How did the company get there? LOA? BK? BK LOA? Is 50 the new normal for now, or is 50 getting artificially strung along and higher is feasible again? What does the MEC think?

I'm actually going to agree with captive on this one and lean toward not scummy, assuming there's a snapback. Someone take a note.

Whatever that means.

Listen, there's being a dick pilot, and then there's being a straight dick. If there are pilots at a company sitting on the sidelines due to a furlough, and someone at the company is picking up open time, then that someone is helping the company keep furloughed pilots furloughed. That's squarely in the straight dick range.

I'd rather come back from my furlough with enough paycheck to save money again. Full pay to the last day.

FPTTLD absolutely.

And this is coming from someone who is squarely junior enough to be on the street on Oct 1st.

I don't think you get it both ways. If you view someone as "scum" for picking up OT while there are still pilots sidelined, it is logically inconsistent to view someone who is ok with furloughs so long as they get their guarantee as anything other than scum. Or vice versa.

Personally, I'm happy to accept a temporary (i.e. reviewed-each-month) reduced monthly guarantee if it helps keep someone around longer.

interesting argument to square.

Whatever the MMG goes down to becomes the ceiling once bankruptcy starts. At that point, it might take years/half a decade/more to get back what was lost. Assuming one didn't sit on the couch the entire time, a one-to-two-year furlough with a return to full MMG might actually end up costing less than long-term reduced wages.

In order to protect that long-term MMG for everyone, you'd have to take the furloughs over the initial hit to MMG.

If I could 100% guarantee that a hit to MMG would be temporary and absolutely result with no furloughs, then I'd be in. I don't trust the company to not furlough later anyway, though, and I don't trust a bankruptcy court to not make MMG concessions semi-permanent.

The airlines have nobody to blame but themselves for the full pay until the last day stance. At every downturn they have taken advantage of the labor force pulling this "we are all in this together" and "everybody needs to sacrifice" routine. But when things pick back up historically pay and QOL restoration lags behind by years. Meanwhile the Airline and their stockholders are making bank with record profits. We have to learn from our mistakes in the past.

It seems.to me that the company would prefer to have a higher MMG once times turn around since they are now getting more productivity out of each pilot. If you are using 4000 pilots at 75 hours a month instead of 6000 pilots at 50.hours a month you are still producing the same amount of Revenue passenger miles without needing 2000 more line checks, 2000 more sim checks, and 2000 health insurance policies.
additionally once a pilot hits the max social security income their hourly costs drop by the companies 6.2% FICA tax. There are more fixed costs each of us have that is more cost effective spread over more hours. At my company even just getting close to MMG instead of 12 to 25 hours over that is a pipe dream for jr guys.

I find it hilarious that at the time of this posting 67% voted for full pay to the last day - makes perfect sense - 100-33=67 duuuh

My new hire class got cancelled. I'd rather find another job than see you guys take pay cuts.

Pilot salaries (labor in general) are by far and away the largest controllable expense at most airlines. ESPECIALLY at a regional which IS a staffing company. Right or wrong this is where they have to go first. They NEED the bodies so concessions are better than furloughs from the company point of view. Ultimately as a pilot your QOL is tied up with your seniority. When there is a down turn THAT is what you are saving - not necessarily the company but in essence your goals are aligned in a down turn. So the company is going to over reach on concessions. Pilots will under reach. It’ll be a negotiation. Both have something to save and something to lose.

Full pay to the last day 100%. I'm in the bottom 20% of my seniority list, but I'd rather come back to a job that was worth a **** eventually than give up concessionary pay.
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Full pay to the last day. My personal experience: furloughed in 2008 from a regional. We took pay cuts and work rule concessions. We had snap backs that were supposedly iron clad. They weren’t. Fast forward to present day and I am 600 from the bottom of a legacy seniority list. I am still feel the same way.

Pilot concessions will never save an airline

If (when) furloughs happen, they happen regardless of any concessions we take- A look back at the history of this industry should illustrate that. The good news is this time we all have 5ish more months to prepare.

I'd take a temporary haircut to keep my brothers and sisters employed, but we all know that is a pipe dream. If we were given contractual assurances, along with incentives to do so that cost the company little money, but up the quality of life, I would do it in a heartbeat, but that is pure fantasy. As someone already said, they will take the pay cut and then furlough anyways.

I think everyone would agree to take what you say, however as you stated, none of us actually believe it will matter nor will the company uphold their promises.

It’s a lose lose.

If people are on the street? Yes, scummy.

Doesn't matter what your excuse is (probably the same excuse used to cross a picket line).

If nobody's furloughed, sure do whatever.

Pick up from pilots all you want, that helps the other guy out, and it's not going to matter to furloughs either way.

Also, regarding reduced lines...

Airlines like that right now because of the government bailouts, they can't furlough but their payroll costs are only partially covered so they're happy if you take ILs.

But steady-state, they will not go for reduced lines and no furloughs... they're still on the hook for full benefit and training costs, so that's not going to be an option... unless you give up something else to sweeten the deal.

You need to keep in mind management's goals when considering this question. In a downturn they are bleeding money and that has to stop. A company cannot continue to lose money month after month. Management is responsible to stop that from happening. We, as labor, might want them to throw all that money our way, but that isn't their job. If they aren't bringing more money in than they are spending, they have to fix that immediately.

And there are two conflicting considerations when it comes to pilots. One is that in the long term, it's more cost effective to have fewer pilots working more hours. Each pilot costs overhead. Health insurance, parking pass, CQ, line checks, all the various administrative stuff. Additionally, if the number of block hours they can sell is less than the MMG of their pilots, then they're paying the difference with no benefit. This would lead them to immediately furlough as many pilots as necessary to have everyone flying 90-100 block per month.

On the other side, for every two pilots you furlough, you have to do downgrade training for one, plus rehire and retrain when you bring them back. That takes both time and money.

Normally MMG isn't a big pay issue because management wants everyone to fly as close to that 100 hour limit as possible. As long as you don't give up pay rates, any loss of MMG should be temporary or irrelevant. You do need to be careful that your pilots can still put food on the table with whatever MMG you agree to go down to though. Taking MMG down to 10 hours per month to keep everyone just means everyone starves. There is a happy medium. Obviously, at the regionals where pay rates are lower, you need a higher MMG to keep food on the table than you would at a major.

I been through this back in the 80s and 90s. I can tell you, unions have little power in these situations. Companies will furloughed as many as they need, and if union don't agree to their terms, they will furlough more. Its a loss cause when it comes to benefits n pay.