The problem with inexperienced, young pilots
06-01-2007, 02:00 PM
#32
New boss = Old boss
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
Originally Posted by azvandriver
KLM was also responsible for the deadliest airline crash ever.
A more experienced FO may have spoken up and prevented the accident. I don't know how experienced he was but I think he was fairly junior.
06-01-2007, 02:21 PM
#33
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: L Side
Posts: 409
I hate biting on these threads but my sense of reason can only bare so much. For those of us who think, we may be aware of what are known to as Logical Fallacies. This topic of low-timers being responsible for a disproportionate number of accidents and incidents brings a few to mind:
Contrary To Fact Hypothesis
Common Belief
Appeal To Ignorance
False Anology
Hasty Generalization
If you are not familiar, get on your fave search engine and do a search.
Only a certified (insert choiceof words here) could ever try to place the blame for the KLM/Pan Am disaster on the low experience of the crew. For the person who made that claim, please research and post the flight times for each and every crew-member involved in that accident.
Contrary To Fact Hypothesis
Common Belief
Appeal To Ignorance
False Anology
Hasty Generalization
If you are not familiar, get on your fave search engine and do a search.
Only a certified (insert choiceof words here) could ever try to place the blame for the KLM/Pan Am disaster on the low experience of the crew. For the person who made that claim, please research and post the flight times for each and every crew-member involved in that accident.
06-01-2007, 03:21 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Flight Instructor
Posts: 623
Originally Posted by mike734
In theory you can crew an aircraft with an experienced Captain and a very new FO. It was done that way for years. Sure there were plenty of accidents but todays aircraft and flying environment are much safer. Airlines like KLM have 500 hour FOs flying in 747s. So why won't it work for Mesa and others like that?
The answer is longevity. Since Meas and those types are not career airlines the FOs will be "trained" by relatively low time Captains. Senior captains will move on rapidly and create upgrade opportunities too soon for fresh FOs. Also, since the upgrade time is minimal the FOs will not get enough experience in the right seat to be good mentors for new hire FOs that replace them. The cycle will continue until there are a series of tragic accidents cause by crew error by young inexperienced, (ambitious) crews.
I think guys like JO have not thought this through. They believe there is a never ending supply of 500 hour wonders willing to work for peanuts until they can upgrade. I don't believe this will continue in the near future. Majors will be in a better position to hire very young FOs because of the lengthy upgrade time. Mesas and the smaller airlines like them will be forced to raise pay and working conditions to retain good mentors or be faced with dangerous crews.
I'm just thinking out loud. That's what occurred to me today.
The answer is longevity. Since Meas and those types are not career airlines the FOs will be "trained" by relatively low time Captains. Senior captains will move on rapidly and create upgrade opportunities too soon for fresh FOs. Also, since the upgrade time is minimal the FOs will not get enough experience in the right seat to be good mentors for new hire FOs that replace them. The cycle will continue until there are a series of tragic accidents cause by crew error by young inexperienced, (ambitious) crews.
I think guys like JO have not thought this through. They believe there is a never ending supply of 500 hour wonders willing to work for peanuts until they can upgrade. I don't believe this will continue in the near future. Majors will be in a better position to hire very young FOs because of the lengthy upgrade time. Mesas and the smaller airlines like them will be forced to raise pay and working conditions to retain good mentors or be faced with dangerous crews.
I'm just thinking out loud. That's what occurred to me today.
06-01-2007, 06:42 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,807
Originally Posted by btwissel
and there are people that spend 20yrs working at burger king. not a preferable way to live, but if your situation requires it, i can be done
06-01-2007, 07:06 PM
#38
La Familia Delta
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
Posts: 2,467
come on, who aspries to be an RJ captain for the rest of their life. thats downright ridiculous. its a stepping stone. people who stay there may have a good reason, but dont justify it by saying thats where you wanted to be. right, ever since you were a little kid you dreamt of flying 6 legs a day to farm towns and getting harrassed whenever you couldnt turn the airplane in 27 minutes.
06-01-2007, 08:30 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: BE99 Single Pilot
Posts: 115
Originally Posted by dundem
I hate biting on these threads but my sense of reason can only bare so much. For those of us who think, we may be aware of what are known to as Logical Fallacies. This topic of low-timers being responsible for a disproportionate number of accidents and incidents brings a few to mind:
Contrary To Fact Hypothesis
Common Belief
Appeal To Ignorance
False Anology
Hasty Generalization
If you are not familiar, get on your fave search engine and do a search.
Only a certified (insert choiceof words here) could ever try to place the blame for the KLM/Pan Am disaster on the low experience of the crew. For the person who made that claim, please research and post the flight times for each and every crew-member involved in that accident.
Contrary To Fact Hypothesis
Common Belief
Appeal To Ignorance
False Anology
Hasty Generalization
If you are not familiar, get on your fave search engine and do a search.
Only a certified (insert choiceof words here) could ever try to place the blame for the KLM/Pan Am disaster on the low experience of the crew. For the person who made that claim, please research and post the flight times for each and every crew-member involved in that accident.
I really don't care how much time people get hired with. I just prefer that he or she can fly well.
06-01-2007, 09:14 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"Well I got you to bite. I didn't say the low experience of the crew was to blame."
Do you get a medal for that? Is it good entertainment posting at this site simply to get a reaction out of someone else?
You don't score points at this site, or in the career, for "I got you to bite".
Just letting you know for future reference.
Do you get a medal for that? Is it good entertainment posting at this site simply to get a reaction out of someone else?
You don't score points at this site, or in the career, for "I got you to bite".
Just letting you know for future reference.
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