Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-11-2020, 01:25 PM   #1  
Perennial Reserve
Thread Starter
 
Excargodog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 5,139
Default Scope starts to rear itís head...

A number of major airline contracts regulate scope by a comparison if regional block hours to total mainline block hours or to total mainline block hours of certain categories of flying (typically narrow bodies). Some have provisions with multiple triggers for scope reduction, triggered by Flying done the previous year.

A few airlines are already hitting these triggering provisions. From airline geeks:

Excargodog is offline  
Old 10-11-2020, 01:41 PM   #2  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Myfingershurt's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: MD-88 FO
Posts: 402
Default

Except most managements are claiming force make ire and basically disregarding scope provisions until a mediator says other wise
Myfingershurt is offline  
Old 10-11-2020, 01:46 PM   #3  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Hedley's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 460
Default

Now that the LOA is in effect at United, their regionals will see flying reduced from 120% mainline NB block using a rolling 12 month average to a month to month reduction of less than 100% of mainline NB block hours. Prior to COVID, the scope restrictions on the 70/76 seaters kept the regional flying below the 100% mark when mainline was flying a full schedule. In the last few months, regional block hours have far exceeded the 120% limit on a month to month basis, while still in compliance with the 12 month look back. Now, for the duration of the LOA, the regional block hours will have to be reduced, mainline NB block hours increased, or some combination that will keep regional block hours below mainline NB block.
Hedley is offline  
Old 10-11-2020, 02:46 PM   #4  
Perennial Reserve
Thread Starter
 
Excargodog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 5,139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myfingershurt View Post
Except most managements are claiming force make ire and basically disregarding scope provisions until a mediator says other wise
Force majeur claims would be very difficult to sell to a mediator given that there are a number of airlines operating with no affiliates regional airline codeshares AT ALL. And with members on furlough and decreased ALV and guarantee, you can be damn sure that the major airline unions will be fighting tooth and nail to enforce theIr own contract scope provisions for the benefit of their own members.
Excargodog is offline  
Old 10-11-2020, 02:48 PM   #5  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Varsity's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2017
Position: 175
Posts: 1,177
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedley View Post
Now that the LOA is in effect at United, their regionals will see flying reduced from 120% mainline NB block using a rolling 12 month average to a month to month reduction of less than 100% of mainline NB block hours. Prior to COVID, the scope restrictions on the 70/76 seaters kept the regional flying below the 100% mark when mainline was flying a full schedule. In the last few months, regional block hours have far exceeded the 120% limit on a month to month basis, while still in compliance with the 12 month look back. Now, for the duration of the LOA, the regional block hours will have to be reduced, mainline NB block hours increased, or some combination that will keep regional block hours below mainline NB block.

That's cute.

This is going to go way beyond that. Mesa is starting to fly 737's for regional pay rates. AA is farming out domestic flying to Jetblue and Alaska.

The whipsaw is going to hit mainline. It already exists in Europe and Asia. Lufthansa had/has a regional flying A340's trans Atlantic.
Varsity is offline  
Old 10-11-2020, 03:45 PM   #6  
Perennial Reserve
Thread Starter
 
Excargodog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 5,139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varsity View Post
That's cute.

This is going to go way beyond that. Mesa is starting to fly 737's for regional pay rates. AA is farming out domestic flying to Jetblue and Alaska.

The whipsaw is going to hit mainline. It already exists in Europe and Asia. Lufthansa had/has a regional flying A340's trans Atlantic.

And Horizon has no scope limits whatsoever.
Excargodog is offline  
Old 10-11-2020, 04:22 PM   #7  
Line Holder
 
Trappy's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 26
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varsity View Post
That's cute.

This is going to go way beyond that. Mesa is starting to fly 737's for regional pay rates. AA is farming out domestic flying to Jetblue and Alaska.

The whipsaw is going to hit mainline. It already exists in Europe and Asia. Lufthansa had/has a regional flying A340's trans Atlantic.
You can kiss this profession goodbye if/when NB scope goes to regionals
Trappy is offline  
Old 10-12-2020, 04:50 AM   #8  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Cyio's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,987
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trappy View Post
You can kiss this profession goodbye if/when NB scope goes to regionals
Quoted for truth. If this happens, better start working on plans C, D, E and F because if that happens, this industry won't be worth the money/time/qol invested into it.
Cyio is offline  
Old 10-12-2020, 08:13 AM   #9  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Gone Flying's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Position: UNA
Posts: 1,342
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varsity View Post
That's cute.

This is going to go way beyond that. Mesa is starting to fly 737's for regional pay rates. AA is farming out domestic flying to Jetblue and Alaska.

The whipsaw is going to hit mainline. It already exists in Europe and Asia. Lufthansa had/has a regional flying A340's trans Atlantic.
just for clairty, Mesa is flying 737 cargo planes for pay rates comparable to other ACMI 737 operators. While the scales are not great CA pay does get above $200/ hr. Itís not mainline NB pay but appears to be comparable to what their competitors pay.


AA is using B6 and Alaska to expand in markets where AA does not have a strong foothold and place their codes on flights on the other two airlines on routes they already operate. What is happening there is a simple codeshare and not anything close to a regional style system for flying NBs. Considering AA, B6, and Alaska all pay within about 5% of each other for 12 year CAs, I donít think that is really detrimental to the industry like a wave of bigger jets at the regionals.
Gone Flying is offline  
Old 10-12-2020, 08:18 AM   #10  
Gets Weekends Off
 
flightlessbirds's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Aug 2018
Posts: 152
Default

The 100% month of scope may actually be looser than the 120% 12 mo look back going forward if there is some continued recovery. They wonít have to use March/April/May 2020ís dismal numbers to calculate it.
flightlessbirds is offline  
 
 
 

 
Post Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Alpa drive? Flogger SkyWest 445 05-08-2019 06:44 PM
Scope... not worth the paper itís written on. CassinAK Alaska 128 09-05-2018 09:13 AM
Martinaire Caravan down DirectTo Safety 30 03-30-2017 03:24 PM
Will scope be relaxed again? B1900YX Major 50 10-14-2010 07:30 AM
Scope and leverage purple101 Cargo 3 08-05-2007 06:25 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:54 AM.