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There is a big difference from 650 and 250. You probably had to work as a pilot and deal with the real world at least somewhat before you got to 650. I think the problem is the people who walk from flight school to the jet. Unlike the military, our training system does not provide a consistent product.
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Originally Posted by Squawk_5543
(Post 188818)
I can tell you first hand that students are starting to go through training with the mindset that they can go to a regional as soon as they get their commercial. I flew with a guy last night who said " Hell no, I'm not getting my CFI, I'm gonna just get some multi time and go to Colgan" <-- :eek: (honest thats what he said)
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Originally Posted by Ellen
(Post 188935)
Entitlement. That is what the younger generation preaches. In my generation, you had to perform to get ahead, now it's expected despite lack of qualifications, skill, etc.
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Originally Posted by Ellen
Entitlement. That is what the younger generation preaches. In my generation, you had to perform to get ahead, now it's expected despite lack of qualifications, skill, etc.
:rolleyes: In my generation it is unethical to benefit from a rule being one way your entire career then lobby to change it when it becomes most advantageous to you...guess nobody told the boomers that about Age 60, eh? |
Originally Posted by TheProfessionalPilot
(Post 188872)
Ok, let's recall the "experienced" pilots at Delta Connection... I believe it was low time captain/copilot that launched in "the wrong general direction." I've been there... it's pretty obvious when your compass doesn't match up... and double flame-outs happen very rarely... but when they it's typically at high altitudes, in equipment at it's limitations, and with poorly trained pilots. Yes, people will be bending airplanes left and right, now that the minimums are the LOWEST they can possibly be! Just take a look at all the flight instructional accidents that happen in C172's and interpolate a little bit in the CRJ/ERJ and there you have a very uncomfortable feeling. I remember when I refused to sign off a CFI/MEI for his CFII checkride because he couldn't LAND THE STUPID SKYHAWK. Come on!!!!
Everyone is right do some research before you speak......... |
Originally Posted by U-I pilot
(Post 188914)
The upgrade mins is not as big a deal.... ATP mins? XJT is no different. There are very few that upgrade at these mins due to seniority.
I went through TSA training as my first experience and at low time. It was not bad, in fact it was very thorough, in-depth training. No, we didn't have FTD's like XJT does, but I felt prepared when I started doing IOE. XJT training is more streamlined and operation oriented.... TSA training is in my opinion quite good....id like to hear from anyone who thinks otherwise.... Fast forward, I am now an instructor at XJT. I have without a doubt seen a decrease in basic knowledge in new hires that come through training..... It is a problem most regionals now face..... People gain ratings at many different places and quality of training is on a wide scale..... I have some people who impress me. I have others that can not identify a proper hold entry. I have seen 1500 hour CFIs come in and not know basic concepts. I've had 800 hour folks that leave places like PDT, TSA, MESA and with their limited experience EXCEL in our training. Yes, hours will give you some experiences, but hours is not everything. In Europe they put 300 hour pilots in the right seat of A320s.... Guess what, at 1500 hours they have 1200 in the plane...... would you rather fly with that pilot as captain or one with 2000 hours and 100 in type? Time is not everything..... it is definitley a factor but is not everything. I would offer myself as an example of this since I was hired at TSA with low time: 650/50 (high compared to todays standards). You would still consider me a low time pilot.....but I now at XJT have 500 in type and have been instructing for 10 months.....You'd be surprised how little some "high-time" pilots know. Some are EXCELLENT, but others are well below par. |
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
(Post 188938)
"In my generation?"
:rolleyes: In my generation it is unethical to benefit from a rule being one way your entire career then lobby to change it when it becomes most advantageous to you...guess nobody told the boomers that about Age 60, eh? I'd be more than happy to give 5 years to age 65 if I knew my Civil Liberties were going to be protected by my country. Cheap Price to pay. In addition, back when the rule was made, there was extremely LESS medical information regarding the ability of anyone over the age of 60 to operate a plane with PAX on them. |
Originally Posted by SAABaroowski
(Post 188941)
Yes but "knowing" the technique to land an airplane in 35Kts of crosswind and actually being able to hand-fly it safely down to the runway is another story............
I know you're just trying to make a point, Saab...but wouldn't 35 kts violate your crosswind limitation? I sure know it would on the CRJ. Sure the airplane can handle it, but I'm not a test pilot, don't get paid enough even if I was, and if something gets bent my ass gets hung out to dry by the company & FAA and the union can't do anything to protect me because I knowingly violated a limitation. THAT is what low-time newbies need to learn even more than proficiently hand-flying the airplane...you're a professional aviator and expected to get the job done in adverse conditions, but NEVER at the expense of safety. Never allow yourself to get pushed into a situation that is truly unsafe, but don't squeal like a schoolgirl at the sight of lines of TRWs, accumulating ice, or an 1800RVR approach. After all, we get paid to be conservative and mitigate risks, not take them... |
Originally Posted by Ellen
(Post 188948)
Or nobody told your illustrious leader "George Bush" when he tries to circumvent Legal Action by citing "Executive Privileges" in the interest of Homeland Security in all his actions that "He" wants no one to know about.
I'd be more than happy to give 5 years to age 65 if I knew my Civil Liberties were going to be protected by my country. Cheap Price to pay. In addition, back when the rule was made, there was extremely LESS medical information regarding the ability of anyone over the age of 60 to operate a plane with PAX on them. Your personal political beliefs don't have anything whatsoever to do with generational entitlement. |
I would have to say that if you line up on the wrong runway it should feel wrong, and if you don't know how to tell the difference (or just opt not to check) with your instruments, then you, my friend, are either careless or inexperienced.
If you don't know how to follow procedures during an emergency (as previously stated), and subsequently GLIDE FROM 41,000 FT to the ground, which by the way takes a very long time, even at 300 knots, you are either inexperienced or careless. Either way, both crews were one or the other. If they were rested or not, experienced or not, they should have been able to recognize and resolve the problem. Neither crew did so. Now the next person can contest how long it takes to glide from 41,000 or that they didn't glide... let's put it this way, they didn't follow procedure, and had ample time to correct the situation. |
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
(Post 188951)
I know you're just trying to make a point, Saab...but wouldn't 35 kts violate your crosswind limitation? I sure know it would on the CRJ. Sure the airplane can handle it, but I'm not a test pilot, don't get paid enough even if I was, and if something gets bent my ass gets hung out to dry by the company & FAA and the union can't do anything to protect me because I knowingly violated a limitation.
THAT is what low-time newbies need to learn even more than proficiently hand-flying the airplane...you're a professional aviator and expected to get the job done in adverse conditions, but NEVER at the expense of safety. Never allow yourself to get pushed into a situation that is truly unsafe, but don't squeal like a schoolgirl at the sight of lines of TRWs, accumulating ice, or an 1800RVR approach. After all, we get paid to be conservative and mitigate risks, not take them... |
Relating the Pinnacle Accident and Comair is APPLES AND ORANGES........ ONE CREW INTENTIONALLY WAS MESSING AROUND IN THEIR AIRCRAFT........ You cannot compare those two accidents....... Just stop talking
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Originally Posted by Paok
(Post 188966)
Relating the Pinnacle Accident and Comair is APPLES AND ORANGES........ ONE CREW INTENTIONALLY WAS MESSING AROUND IN THEIR AIRCRAFT........ You cannot compare those two accidents....... Just stop talking
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Originally Posted by TheProfessionalPilot
(Post 188965)
Hang on, I have no experience with ERJ/CRJ equipment, so here's a question: Is the 30 knot crosswind component a limitation, or a demonstrated? If it's a demonstrated then there is no rule breaking (unless my lack of 121 reg knowledge is killing me here) involved. Just asking and just curious about the RJ's lim's.
Wind Conditions Limitation 2.6.6 Crosswind braking action good or better- takeoff and landing 27 KNOTS |
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
(Post 188951)
I know you're just trying to make a point, Saab...but wouldn't 35 kts violate your crosswind limitation? I sure know it would on the CRJ. Sure the airplane can handle it, but I'm not a test pilot, don't get paid enough even if I was, and if something gets bent my ass gets hung out to dry by the company & FAA and the union can't do anything to protect me because I knowingly violated a limitation.
THAT is what low-time newbies need to learn even more than proficiently hand-flying the airplane...you're a professional aviator and expected to get the job done in adverse conditions, but NEVER at the expense of safety. Never allow yourself to get pushed into a situation that is truly unsafe, but don't squeal like a schoolgirl at the sight of lines of TRWs, accumulating ice, or an 1800RVR approach. After all, we get paid to be conservative and mitigate risks, not take them... |
Hey man, it's all fun and games till you scrape your knee on the instrument panel. LOL Some of you guys are really wound up tight. ... RELAX a little if someone isn't fully informed and makes a comment.
Isn't it funny how many of us are on here "chatting" back and forth and this isn't going anywhere or helping anything? I like this forum. hahaha |
Originally Posted by Paok
(Post 188968)
Wind Conditions Limitation 2.6.6 Crosswind braking action good or better- takeoff and landing 27 KNOTS
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Originally Posted by TheProfessionalPilot
(Post 188971)
Thanks for the clarification... so in theory you should not be hung out to dry if it's just a demonstrated crosswind component, unlike your tailwind component limitation. That's apples and oranges.
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Originally Posted by SAABaroowski
(Post 188974)
This is the CRJ though, not the ERJ probably becuase of their little stubby narrow landing gear cant handle it:p
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Max demonstrated xwind on the ERJ is 30 knots.
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Originally Posted by TheProfessionalPilot
(Post 188961)
If you don't know how to follow procedures during an emergency (as previously stated), and subsequently GLIDE FROM 41,000 FT to the ground, which by the way takes a very long time, even at 300 knots, you are either inexperienced or careless. Now the next person can contest how long it takes to glide from 41,000 or that they didn't glide... let's put it this way, they didn't follow procedure, and had ample time to correct the situation. The problem was that in the procedures at the time the emergency "profile" did not call to nose it over and GAIN speed, the engines on the -200 are reliable but underpowered and in the event of a flameout they will corelock if you dont get more airflow through them. The 300kts is the newer way, and if they HAD done that they would have had a chance. They were very unprofessional and its unfortunate that it took their lives, but if the flight had a flameout at FL350 with 50 people and everyone was professional they would have had the same issue to contend with (core lock), now if/when it happens the crew will follow the procedures to keep the temps down and give them a chance for the airstart. Someone else's mistakes is everyone's free lesson. |
Originally Posted by TheProfessionalPilot
(Post 188976)
I gotcha, so the CRJ has no actual crosswind LIMITATION, but the ERJ does is 27knots, and both have tailwind lim's. I was curious about that.
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Originally Posted by Paok
(Post 188968)
Wind Conditions Limitation 2.6.6 Crosswind braking action good or better- takeoff and landing 27 KNOTS
Keep in mind each company can have its own limitations, such as at PNCL max operating altitude is FL370, whereas the CRJ is certified to FL410. A crosswind landing of 35 knots can be done (safely)- seen it first hand- but its not a greaser! |
Originally Posted by higney85
(Post 188983)
The problem was that in the procedures at the time the emergency "profile" did not call to nose it over and GAIN speed, the engines on the -200 are reliable but underpowered and in the event of a flameout they will corelock if you dont get more airflow through them. The 300kts is the newer way, and if they HAD done that they would have had a chance. They were very unprofessional and its unfortunate that it took their lives, but if the flight had a flameout at FL350 with 50 people and everyone was professional they would have had the same issue to contend with (core lock), now if/when it happens the crew will follow the procedures to keep the temps down and give them a chance for the airstart. Someone else's mistakes is everyone's free lesson.
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Originally Posted by TheProfessionalPilot
(Post 189014)
Is the FL370 a post-accident limitation or is this old and just for 121 legs?
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Originally Posted by Ellen
(Post 188937)
Entitlement. That is what the younger generation preaches. In my generation, you had to perform to get ahead, now it's expected despite lack of qualifications, skill, etc.
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The CRJ wont core lock due simply to a flame out and low speed. However any engine will core lock if ran too hot for too long with a high angle of attack and low speed THEN a flame out with mass shock cooling. Hence Pinnacle's relight failures.
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sounds like zoot got passed up for a job offer
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Originally Posted by Zoot Suit
(Post 189090)
You can thank affirmative action for that.
Zoot explain to me what the Phuck this has to do with Affirmative Action....Please enlighten me,, |
There's two major category terms for errors, particularly as applied in aviation. Comission and omission. The CRJ flameout is essentially a comission error. The KLEX CRJ was omission. Of course, neither category is completely immune from experience levels. Although "messin around" seems to be more common to less experienced, or rather more succinctly, less mature individuals. (Sure, there's some exceptions to comission errors - anyone remember the infamous "Detroit diver" 727?)
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Originally Posted by Blkflyer
(Post 189144)
Zoot explain to me what the Phuck this has to do with Affirmative Action....Please enlighten me,,
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"I like grapes!"
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Originally Posted by Squawk_5543
(Post 188818)
I can tell you first hand that students are starting to go through training with the mindset that they can go to a regional as soon as they get their commercial. I flew with a guy last night who said " Hell no, I'm not getting my CFI, I'm gonna just get some multi time and go to Colgan" <-- :eek: (honest thats what he said)
I can already tell I'm learning a lot more since I started instructing. You start to pay attention to the details when your not flying the plane. I'm enjoying it....for now. It wasn’t too long ago that regional minimum were way over 2000 hours (or not even hiring). Somewhere a line in the sand must be drawn where “how low is too low.” Depends on who you talk to and what the hiring conditions were like when they went threw it (3 years to 30 years ago). Safety is always number one. Can you put a minimum hour time on what is safe? Food for thought. |
Now we'll see who pays the most for the 250hr guys. Mesa, TSA,or MesaChina
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Originally Posted by Zoot Suit
(Post 189090)
You can thank affirmative action for that.
Always one or two in the bunch. Get a life. |
TSA's training isn't particularly tough, but it is in depth and unlike other regionals they don't have procedure-based training to teach you to push the right button at the right time and fill a seat. Instead they teach you the company rules, then every system in depth integrated with 12 pages of memory items and limitations that you have to have memorized and understand how to apply to the line in order for you to pass the oral. If people wash out it is their fault because they did not study enough.
As far as the 1500 wondercaptain... That is where we are headed no matter what. There is a lack of experienced pilots to staff regional airlines that isn't going to go away until there is another major event to destroy the demand for pilots again. The QOL at TSA suffers from a really conservative management team that does not appreciate the pilot group. They treat the captains poorly and this has fostered a deep antagonism that can only be placated with a better contract and pilot-minded scheduling (double-dead heads to an overnight followed by a deadhead to a 12 hour 4 day and the like need to stop, -and all this for $20k a year). But hey, at least you stay motivated to leave. :eek: People who have really studied to get their ratings do fine at TSA unlike pilots who have passed everything by memorizing answers a la Gleim. Guess I better get rid of all those red books before... Personally I think upgrading before getting all 4 seasons in the airplane is ridiculous. I have never flown in a New England winter, and would never want to be PIC without having done that first as an FO. The race to the bottom ends with a crash. P.S. I love it when people are saying how poor the training is at TSA and misspell words in their post. Not exactly building their case. |
Call me crazy but I have a feeling the FAA will step in, or some politician looking for a quick good public vote, and stop it once one accident happens and they find out it's a low time guy.
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Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
(Post 189245)
Call me crazy but I have a feeling the FAA will step in, or some politician looking for a quick good public vote, and stop it once one accident happens and they find out it's a low time guy.
SAAB, you're my hero 2133 posts:eek: |
End Of Thread.
Tsa Has Low Mins. So What! Go There If U Can't Make It Anywhere Else. If Not Hold Out. End Of Thread! |
ellen, this forum is for discussion. You just came on and made five posts in less than 20 minutes, acknowledging "I didn't even read the thread" in one of them. If you don't want to read and discuss, don't post.
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