TSA' Ridiculously low minimums
 

250HRS Total time and 25 Multi, and they wonder why they have such hight washout rates, this is ridiculous..................

Frank was right...

Whos Frank?

Saab, please tell me you didn't...wait, you did....i can't believe you just posted this today...mins have been that low for a while now, it's nothing new over at TSA.

Wanna hear something more fun, i met a new hire who was starting class back in June (maybe May) he was in class on a monday, hired the week before...but he got his commercial/multi the Saturday between being hired and starting class....hired w/ a conditional "get your twin rating" so ... there ya go.

Now, what's really lovely is have you heard of the new upgrade minimums? ATP requirements...i just hope airplanes don't start falling outta the sky, 250 hr TT pilot, 1500 hr Captain with 500 in type, gonna be a fun time in the future...the other funny thing, while the other regionals are avoiding things like this...it is a telling of the times, especially @ places that are "below" average (the Mesa's and TSA's of the world)

This is Bananas, I never thought this would happen, I hate to say it, but its only a matter of time until an RJ gets seriously bent and people get hurt due to EXTREMELY inexperienced pilots............ I wonder if the majors will look down upon these types of applicants in the future......................... crazy my friends crazy...........

It has happened.

SAAB,

You seriously thought it wouldn't come to this? Everybody is lowering their minimums. Piedmont's have been "Multi-commercial" for some time now. The average around here is still somewhere in the area of 500 hours. Yeah, that's low compared to what was out there a couple years ago but I remember instructors bailing with about the same times pre 9-11.

Lord I cant believe it, I hope this "trickles" up to the major level

I don't want it to trickle. I want the floodgates to open.

Even better than that, it's time to take back what we lost. Pay, work rules, etc. Rather than setting the bar lower, lets raise the standards.

Im telling you man, Im starting to get excited,,,,,,,,,,, could you imagine????, you apply without having 36 internal recs, or 5,000PIC turbine and get an interview:rolleyes:

FANTASTIC...maybe we should build an Ark waiting for the floodgates ;-) Can't wait!!

So anywho - About those upgrade times - I can guarantee I wouldn't be ready for Captain at TSA with those mins...it's scary to think guys are gonna go for it too...they had tons wash out with higher mins, and now they've dropped upgrade training to FOUR sim sessions. Eek...!

I really don't think the reduced upgrade mins will have much effect. Seniority will still be the important factor. I think the next two or three months will see lots of people upgrading at close to those minimums but after that it will drift back to about two years.

they lowered the upgrade mins at pncl (2500TT) and still cant fill CA spots. The joke is that FO's will be Junior Manned into upgrade class.... lower mins doesnt mean more people will head that way.

Wow.. I knew that the advertised mins were 250/25, but I had no idea they were actually taking people at those times... Scary stuff... I just hope no one gets hurt.

Same here. I always thought there was a difference between posted mins and competitive mins. Apparently not at TSA. Hey Saab, just out of curiosity, what times would be competitive over there at XJT?

-Ben

I originally posted this in another thread but this thread seems like a good one to restate the obvious.

"For what it's worth, there are many FO's out there flying the line for the airlines with 1000's of hours in jets over many years, that do not feel comfortable in upgrading because they do not feel that they know enough or feel comfortable in "The Final Authority" role cast upon the PIC.

These professional pilots are much more realistic when it comes to knowing their own skill-set than do many of these lower-time pilots. The ones I'm specifically talking about are the ones who mention upgrade time in their post when all they have is 350/25. I bet many of you would freak out if the captain of an RJ had to go to the bathroom while in flight and you now had to become the sole operator of the plane."

Well, that CRJ reposition flight that got sloppy at 410 and flamed the engines out had (in comparison with the new reduced hiring minimums) "experienced" pilots in it (not if you read the transcript...something about the word "dude used a lot gives me the chills) So what's going to happen with these reduced hiring minimums? Probably not a repeat of that scenario - perhaps super low time people might be too timid to try that. But then there's all sort of other gotcha's.....

Assuming the CA woke me up to tell me they were leaving...
:D

Personally, I was a 500-hr newbie in the RJ when my first Captain off IOE took the walk-of-shame. Didn't even phase me in the least (actually remembered enjoying it - smiled a lot to myself LoL), but I never even thought about it until I read your post. I wonder - what do most low-timers feel like as the sole manipulator in a case like that??

First, those experienced pilots didn't have common sense.

Secondly, they didn't understand the systems on the airplane and how to get the APU to actually start the engines on the CRJ after a flame out.
This is why systems study is important, and should be taken seriously and brushed up on often. (More often that every 6mo. for a Captain and year for an FO.)

They changed it so they can hire all us low time chicks! :eek: LOL!

I their high washout rate has to do with their poor training too. Supposibly their training is almost with no instructor. They give you bunch of CBT CD's and assign you a partner. You guys study by yourself. Than you have a sign in sheet to see an instructor if you need to and you are usually no 80 on the sign in sheet. If you fall behind in training they say bye. Thats what I heard.

Actually, to their defense- I believe they were using the proper procedures to attempt an APU assisted start. Problem is, once your engines experience core lock any start attempt is useless.

They would have been alive today if they didn't deviate from their climb profile and get into that scenario to start with. Those profiles are there for a reason. You reap what you sow....

its easy to monday morning quarterback... people of all experience levels f* up.. what about easter 401, or alvianca 419. Flying tigers, Tinarif (or however you spell it.) how about the countless 74's that drug an engine going into kai tak, or slid off into the water, or the heavy that bumped in ord the other day. These are all experienced flight crews. Mistakes happen, there are two of us in the cockpit for a reason. As I said before, back in the 60s - 70s they were hiring people off the streat with nothing more than a private ticket, if that, in some cases. Its just a sign of the times, my biggest hope is that this will help to make the job desirable again, and management may realise that pilots are not a disposable resource and drive our pay up.... We will see...

Mistakes happen every day, but the Pinnacle accident was no mistake. It was gross negligence on the part of the flight crew. As was Tenarife, on the part of the KLM captain, since you brought that up.

agreed with the previous posts. I also see a big gap between being qualified for the position and being prepared for it. to the guy who said TSA just hands you the material and lets you be...it's not entirely true. You do get instruction, extra help is there if you need it as well, along with one on one mentoring, etc. The company however is much more cutthroat than a good chunk of the other regionals, and the capt. checkride is typically a "build the airplane for me" type of ordeal.

The guys who will probably see 1.5-2 year upgrades still @ TSA will be the ones hired with wet tickets...for people who come over with nearly 1000 hrs, they'd upgrade you tomorrow if you volunteered.

It's interesting read what you all think makes a pilot experienced enought to be a PIC versus what Army Aviation thinks makes a pilot experienced enough. I come from a culture where 1 year experience as a PI and roughly 500 hours FWME time is the target on the the wall to be nominated for PIC. The trick is, all the PICs in the orginazation that we've flow with have to nominate us and the commander has to approve even before we can take the checkride.

It was not uncommon in my last organization to have flight crews with less than 1000 hours FWME flying together, with passengers on board, on international legs, over water, into large airports (Frankfurt, Brussels, Lisbon, Venice etc). (Granted most of the pilot had 1000+ RW hours but not all the 1LT's and CPTs did).

Even now, on my second overseas tour with a grand total of three years and 1250 hours Army C-12 (BE200) time under my belt I am in the top 25% experience bracket (for airplanes). Once I get 150 hours in my current version I would expect to be up for PIC again.

If the FAA has thrown a mark on the wall and said "This is what you need to be an ATP and you have to be and ATP to be a CA on an airliner" and you pass your companies CA upgrade program than that should be enough. Just because your airline takes 3-10 years to upgrade from FO to CA doesn't mean that you're not experienced enough to be a CA with less than 3000-10000 hours. It just means the seniority has you by the tail and you have to wait your turn.

Lowering minimums isn't a problem, lowering standards and failing to mitigate risk is.

100% wrong, as usual.

The only thing the pilots of FLG3701 didn't have was professionalism. Oh yeah, and an understanding of high-altitude aerodynamics, and the knowledge that you need to keep speed on that wing at altitude and if you can't keep speed you need to level the ****** off.

we are in the same boat 600/100 is Competitive :eek:

I am not saying the pilots didnt screw up- they did without question and this black cloud will stay over 9E forever, BUT the stupidity that led them into the flameout cannot be blamed for there attempted recovery. They did follow the current procedures (at the time) for the flameout- which did not include diving the plane to 300Kts to keep the turbines spinning fast and the ITT down, the procedures at the time called to maintain a slower speed and slow the decent in the idea of giving the crew time to head towards an airfield and have as much time as humanly possible to get the engines back. I am not defending these guys- what they did was wrong on many levels, but if you notice the current procedures for flameouts at all operators involve getting the speed up so the engines dont core lock. Learning from others mistakes in the big part of aviation.

I do think though that in the next few years there will be an accident (not hoping, just thinking) and it will come down to inexperienced pilots. I do not know how a 1500 hour guy with 500 in type could be a CA.. I have right at the 1500/500 (not upgrading for a while so you dont need to worry) and I feel very comfortable and competent in the airplane in addition to the duties outside the airplane (such as knowing where we are taxiing, when things don't look right, etc) but I learn soo much every flight not just from the flight experience, but from the captains I fly with. After another year I think I will be ready, but right now I am still learning. I could only imagine dealing with DCA, LGA, JFK, PHL as a 250 hour FO- maybe that is why we hear the stories... I do give the guys credit though for making it through training, OE, and adapting to the line- thats a big jump.

I can tell you first hand that students are starting to go through training with the mindset that they can go to a regional as soon as they get their commercial. I flew with a guy last night who said " Hell no, I'm not getting my CFI, I'm gonna just get some multi time and go to Colgan" <-- :eek: (honest thats what he said)

I can already tell I'm learning a lot more since I started instructing. You start to pay attention to the details when your not flying the plane. I'm enjoying it....for now.

There have been 1500hr captains at the "regionals" for a long time - they were just in a Beech 99, 1900, Jetstream or maybe a Saab. Even saying that, I doubt there will be many 1500hr captains in an RJ, even if upgrade minimums are that low.

My very first leg of IOE was PHL-ATL. Thank goodness I had been into busy airports before in a previous job, otherwise I can see how it would be intimidating dealing with the rapid-fire pace of calls and complex airport layouts. For somebody that hadn't been into anything bigger than a semi-busy Class C I could understand some major problems. Hopefully folks in that situation are VERY fast learners, otherwise they'll have no place in the cockpit of a 121 airliner.

Every time I'm waiting to depart 15 or 19 at DCA and watch an RJ make the turn at Rosslyn at what appears to be 2000' I wonder if there is a low-time FO at the controls...then I watch a CAL guppy do the exact same thing and realize no matter what seat we're in or what airplane we fly, we're always learning.

Your a good man, CFI'ing is the best flying your ever going to do, its always the guys that did very little 91 flying that are complete TOOLS in the airplane or in the crew rooms

YIKES: Delta Connection... Pinnacle... the list goes on
 

Ok, let's recall the "experienced" pilots at Delta Connection... I believe it was low time captain/copilot that launched in "the wrong general direction." I've been there... it's pretty obvious when your compass doesn't match up... and double flame-outs happen very rarely... but when they it's typically at high altitudes, in equipment at it's limitations, and with poorly trained pilots. Yes, people will be bending airplanes left and right, now that the minimums are the LOWEST they can possibly be! Just take a look at all the flight instructional accidents that happen in C172's and interpolate a little bit in the CRJ/ERJ and there you have a very uncomfortable feeling. I remember when I refused to sign off a CFI/MEI for his CFII checkride because he couldn't LAND THE STUPID SKYHAWK. Come on!!!!

Diddo, completely agree... instructing is the way to learn how to actually FLY an airplane. You really do learn a lot from teaching people how to fly. LoL It's funny but it's completely true, and it's a lot more safe in my eyes.

Both pilots on the comair flight had been with the company for years. Neither of them were low time. They also had adequate rest.

Please don't be so ignorant...this statement is borderline stupid.

The crew of Comair 5191 was FAR from being a couple of inexperienced wunderpilots, and thinking otherwise means you didn't read the NTSB reports. The captain had been at Comair around 7 years, had over 1500 hours of CL65 PIC and double that total in the airplane. The FO had been at Comair over 2.5 years.

They made an extremely tragic mistake at the end of a very long accident chain...but to claim they were inexperienced is incorrect at best and naively foolish at worst.

High time or Low time....
You either washout during training or you don't.

Some people can do this...others are less fortunate;)

The upgrade mins is not as big a deal.... ATP mins? XJT is no different. There are very few that upgrade at these mins due to seniority.

I went through TSA training as my first experience and at low time. It was not bad, in fact it was very thorough, in-depth training. No, we didn't have FTD's like XJT does, but I felt prepared when I started doing IOE. XJT training is more streamlined and operation oriented.... TSA training is in my opinion quite good....id like to hear from anyone who thinks otherwise....

Fast forward, I am now an instructor at XJT. I have without a doubt seen a decrease in basic knowledge in new hires that come through training..... It is a problem most regionals now face..... People gain ratings at many different places and quality of training is on a wide scale..... I have some people who impress me. I have others that can not identify a proper hold entry.

I have seen 1500 hour CFIs come in and not know basic concepts. I've had 800 hour folks that leave places like PDT, TSA, MESA and with their limited experience EXCEL in our training. Yes, hours will give you some experiences, but hours is not everything.

In Europe they put 300 hour pilots in the right seat of A320s.... Guess what, at 1500 hours they have 1200 in the plane...... would you rather fly with that pilot as captain or one with 2000 hours and 100 in type? Time is not everything..... it is definitley a factor but is not everything.

I would offer myself as an example of this since I was hired at TSA with low time: 650/50 (high compared to todays standards). You would still consider me a low time pilot.....but I now at XJT have 500 in type and have been instructing for 10 months.....You'd be surprised how little some "high-time" pilots know. Some are EXCELLENT, but others are well below par.