Regional Advice
 

I need some people's advice. I was at a regional airline earlier this year, and I failed my checkride, and got booted out of ground school. I am going to try to apply for other regional jobs like AE, and advice anyone has? Do you guys think it will affect me really bad? However when I failed the checkride it wasn't really fair what happened, and let's just say I got the worst guy in the place when that happened.

Cheers!

Which regional?

Sim
 

Did You failed the sim part or the "Ground school"? The "Innitial training" is "Ground school", "Sim training" and IOE I think............

I think the ground school ends with the Oral and you have to pass the Oral to start the Sim so I guess you failed the Sim part during your "Innitial New Hire training"...............

Now the important is if you did the checkride twice.
If you did then you have it on your FAA records and that can be a problem.

It is nasty to let a pilot do the checkride twice if he is not ready and he fails. (The company knows) That is playing with the pilots career as it gets into the FAA records. A good company will not release you for the Checkride if you are not ready for it.

AE are very negative to all that have failed, left or had problems during former 121 training. You cannot even have a number wrong on the application or any lapse in your background or anything.

I would not waste my time on them. Do research and see who is most open minded among the Regionals and who seems to understand that pilots are humans and can get into problems and learn from it.

Let's just say it is one of the top of regionals. I do not want to admit which one it was.

God! What's the matter with you, eh! You ruined it! Just joking. :D

To the original poster - I asked a few family members about this same thing just in case it ever happened to myself. They said they had a couple of guys in their class have the same issue and the airline just gave them more training on the areas they were deficient in and did another checkride. Those were all from National, Pan Am, UAL and AAL so I'm not sure if a regional would do the same thing. There are plenty of guys who get slammed on a checkride and make it to the majors. Just be sure it's a lesson learned and make that clear in your next interview. Prove it to them in the simride too. Best of luck!

I failed the checkride itself in the sim. I pass Indoc, Systems, Oral, and got all the way through training, and on the last sim ride (Checkride Sim) I failed on two items. A non-precision apporach, and the go around. I had to meet with management after that, and they basically kicked me to the curb!

I only took my checkride once, and I still have my 8710 form from it, and I have no idea if its on my record or not. I would presume it is on my record, and I do not want to be dishonest, and go into some regional and lie about it. That just isn't right to me.

I have a friend who works for AE, and I have turned my stuff in there, and I got an e-mail recently from them, and I just haven't set up the interview date yet. He claims he spoken to someone there at AE, and if I'm honest about it, they will over look it. So I am confused.

I guess you can say I am little worried about my career. I'm in my 30's, 4 year degree, 2000 hours, 300 hours ME, and I just want to get a regional job fix this problem, and hopefully someday move on to the majors.

AE won't hire you if you've failed a checkride. Others might.

A former coworker washed out at TSA during the oral. It took about three months and tons of resumes to 135 and 121 carriers and the only one that gave him an interview was Skyway. He's now flying for them.

Lots of 135 operations are desperate for people right now. Have you thought about going that route?

You are right. No point in lying or hide things that will come out in a background check. That would make things worse. No point in hiding or lying even if it would not come out.

You can make it but it will be harder.
If you have a reference inside American Eagle then who knows.......give it a try.

They just have a hard time believing a company will invest in 30 - 40k training and then just let you go without giving you the extra training you need to get ready...........it is a bad financial idea if they do as it is much more expensive to train another pilot from the start.....AE will in most cases believe the pilot is the problem....

Wherever you go, remember that they wont want to hear you passing off blame for your failure onto anybody else but you. Not to get on a soapbox here, but I am sure you learned a few things which might have changed the outcome.

You might try Pinnacle. Friend of mine, super nice guy, failed his check ride in November in the exact scenario you gave. Pinnacle hired him after he was honest about it and spun it as a learning experience, and he is starting IOE at Pinnacle next week. Good luck.

I am guessing here but.........I dont think he wants to return there........:rolleyes:

I'd have to disagree.

poster: Depending on specifics and the way you present them, I think you will have no problem getting on with another 121 regional. What specifically happened on the non-precision and go around that was unsat. What was said in the management meeting? I only ask so i might can help. Also you'll have to get used to and comfortable with these questions as every employer will ask the same thing.

Downtownkid,

It's not the end of the world. Years ago maybe but there is a shortage. Also, the corporate world can be much more enjoyable than 121 if you find that the failed checkride is haunting you. There are some awesome corporate jets out there to fly and they don't just go the same route every day. You stay at great hotels and travel to many places. The salaries are very good at most of them. keep your chin up and look forward not back.

Deez340 makes good points here. At the end it will all be about how you present the case.............

You are correct in that you need to get a 121 job and pass training. Once you punch the 121 ticket future employers will not be too concerned with your ability to complete training, despite the one failure.

Failures happen for a variety of reasons, you just need to prove that it was a transient problem and not indicative of your overall abilities. Avoid regionals with high failure rates...two failures and you are done in the airline world..

Ok, here is what specifically happened on the checkride:

The day of the checkride, I was explained that here is what is going to happen on the checkride.

1. 2 Precision Approaches (One can be coupled, and one couldn't)

2. 2 Non-Precision checkrides (One can be coupled, and one couldn't)

3. V1-Cut

4. An Emergency

5. 3 Landings

During the non-precision approach, I was getting vectors for it. He kept the vectors very tight into the airport, and when I called for the wx & in range check list, I asked the PNF to build the approach into the FMS, and the check airman, told us not to use it. (Let me add that all through training, we were told to use the fms no matter what, because it adds to your SA) so I was a little confused why he would take it away. Well anyway then we were exchanging flight control for the brieft, and he started to give us vectors for the apporach, and I asked for delayed vectors - I was told unable, then I asked to hold over the XYZ vor, and I was told unable, and then I asked for the full procedure approach - once again told was unable. So during this time, we had not briefed the approach, and I hadn't seen the step down on the vor apporach, and I proceed to cross the vor, turn inbound, and descend down to MDA, and I got a terrain warning message, proceeded to go around, and my PNF messed up the call outs, and the go-around was a disaster. Let me also state that the PNF has just failed their checkride before me, and they were acting as captain for my ride.

Well I was told that I failed, and we never completed the whole checkride. We had only completed Steep Turn, Stall, Area Departure, V1-Cut, Single Engine ILS, 1 - Landing, APU fire on the ground. All those mentioned items I had passed without problems. The check airman told me to go back to the hotel and await a call in the morning from management.

When I got back to the hotel, I asked the hotel to make a copy of my training folder. Which I still with me today, and each of my comments it said my attitude was positive, and always showed improvement, and also there was one that said great work ethic, things are really starting to come together, and the extra studying shows.

Next afternoon, I met with management, and there mind had already been made up. I was told since I failied one of the sim sessions, and I passed it the second chance no problem, that there were sending me home, and I could reapply to the company in our year.

So basically I return back home, and I went back to instructing for awhile, until I could figure out what my next move was, and I would like to get out of instructing and move out to the airlines as I've always dreamed of being an airline pilot.

One of my friends told me that it was a very smart idea to take a copy of my training records so I could show a future employer that I had a great attitude, I struggled on somethings, but I studied hard, and it was always reflected in my comments.

Any advice on this would greatly help. I am on the west coast, and I trying very hard to stay where I live, and find a job that will allow me to commute.

Cheers.

I would never try to pass off the blame on anyone than myself. I do believe it was a great learning experience, and I learned a lot from it, and I can honestly say that I think the checkride was rushed, and losing my SA was a huge mistake, and I would never let it happen again.

Sounds like exactly what they would want to hear in an interview. With the way the regionals are hiring right now it would not hurt you at all to go in and give it a shot. You have been through the program so you know what it takes, and I think they sometimes realize that stuff like that happens. Just like when they asked if I had busted any checkrides in my Interview.

Get your stuff together, get 110% prepared and give it a shot. You will never know otherwise!

:D

from his previous post i think he was working at skywest.

any way you just have to get back on the horse and start riding again. it may be harder to get another chance but like others said being open and honest about the situation will go a long way for you.

It wasn't at Pinnacle, I think it was Horizon. I knew a guy with a similar experience

Horizon is probably the only one who would send you home without any retraining right now. Everyone else is too hard up.

downtownkid:

It sounds like you have a good attitude about this. Why did they let you fly with a PNF who had failed the day before? Did they send him home?

My advice is to put your resume back out there and go for it. The regionals are going to be dying for pilots over the next few years. Just be yourself and be honest. Good luck!

That's F'ed up them giving you a PNF who failed. They aren't even qualified. At my airline they give you a line captain, so they know what they're doing and want to help you pass.

I must agree that it sounds like Horizon. One of my friends from high school failed during the sim and his experience sounds quite a bit like this one. He too did not have a line captain... but his PNF hadn't taken his checkride yet... by coincidence my buddys PNF had the same check pilot and passed after witnessing what the guy put them through...

I am a little out of place when I say this... because I am not an airline pilot as of yet... but I say blow it off and get back into the ball game. Right now there are so many regionals that would be glad to have someone who doesn't have less than 1000TT right now. Best of luck!

I agree with the prior comments. Apply somewhere else, if you didn't have a problem getting the first interview then you shouldn't have trouble getting a second one. As for the fail showing up on your record, I was under the impression that a SIC type didn't count as a checkride but as a PC and for this reason didn't show up in your file in OKC. Not sure if this is true but that is what I was told.

GL

any 121 training counts but you will only get an FAA failure record if you fail the checkride twice.

That is the normal but it seems like some gets the record after failing the first time...........anyway most companies ask if you have failed or left a 135 or a 121 training before and there is no point in not being honest about it.........

just curious what your flight time was going into the training.

keep you head in the game. Good luck.

It's hard to judge this hearing only one side of the story, but, you should never start an approach until you're ready. If you had a real Capt in the left seat, "unable" would be an incorrect answer. That's the problem with two F/O's taking a checkride together. I've even seen this at my level and I don't like it.

ATC is there to help you and if you need more time, then you get more time. In real life, ATC doesn't say to an emergency aircraft "unable delay vectors". In real life, it's "what do you need", or "how can I help". In fact, if this were recurrent training, what you experienced could be considered negative training and could cause you to rush unnecessarily if it happened in real life. I mean, what if you were feeling rushed in real life and let ATC "fly the airplane" for you cause that's how it works in the sim. Bad deal....

I am hoping with the way the regionals are hiring, that they will look past this. I fully intend on being completely honest about it, and also show any airline a copy of my training records which I copied before I was kicked out of the company. I am also taking these few weeks and studying my @ss off to be on top of my game for the next interview.

Thanks for your advice!

It was the way of the company. They took two trainies, and when one trainee was flying, the other trainee was acting as captain. It was explained to us that during the checkrides, that if the PNF was not doing the job correctly (call outs, etc) then they would be removed from the sim, and the check airman would step in and be the PNF, well that never happened.

My sim partner went through the checkride first, and the person did horrible, and busted. I asked the check airman to remove my sim partner, as I did not think they were up being the PNF, and I was told no, and I would have to deal with it. Well as everyone knows after you bust a ride, you game is not 100% in it anymore, and that was exactly the case.

Both my sim partner and myself were expelled from training the next day after talking to management.

I am trying to stay very positive about this. I am frustrated, as I was very careful in the company I picked to want to work for.

It was the way of the company. They took two trainies, and when one trainee was flying, the other trainee was acting as captain. It was explained to us that during the checkrides, that if the PNF was not doing the job correctly (call outs, etc) then they would be removed from the sim, and the check airman would step in and be the PNF, well that never happened.

My sim partner went through the checkride first, and the person did horrible, and busted. I asked the check airman to remove my sim partner, as I did not think they were up being the PNF, and I was told no, and I would have to deal with it. Well as everyone knows after you bust a ride, you game is not 100% in it anymore, and that was exactly the case.

Both my sim partner and myself were expelled from training the next day after talking to management.

My time going into the training was:

2000 TT
300 ME
250 ACTUAL IFR
250 Night
1600 Dual Given

500+ hours in the previos 6 months!

That is a lot for a new hire today
 

That is a lot of good hours.

If you had no problems in training in the past then I do not see why you should have difficulties in 121 training..........

you'll be fine. everyone is REALLY REALLY short and you should get in somewhere easily.

AE use to use upgrading captains and paired them with FO's....but that was years ago... our annual recurrent was always scheduled with an FO and a CA as well.....but i guess if the bodies arnt available the next best thing is the check airman.....

how is it that these 300 hour guys are able to get through training ?

Time is important...but not necessarily for training. To get through training, you need to be TRAINABLE. The 2 high time guys in my new hire class last year didn't make it. Its not that uncommon.

BINGO!!!! Sounds like this guy is not telling us everything. I just find it hard to believe that the airline will spend all that money to just kick you out at the end. As for my guess, I think he was at Express. I had a guy in my class that fits that profile.

Downtownkid, where you in the early morning sim class? I think we were in class together.

??
 

you normally do not get to 2000 hours flight time without being "Trainable"

to get a job at a Regional you need your CPL- ME instrument.........

to get to 2000 hours you either are a CFI or flew for a company and got some "training" so I see it difficult to have 2000 hours including 300 ME and all the ratings and maybe even CFI MEI CFII without being "trainable".........

People mention "trainable" like the guys applying to the regional have never been in training before............

With good instructors the 121 training in D-sim should be more structured and actually easier than many other trainings..........

but that is with good instructors and a good program..............

there is so many factors involved that it is difficult to see the whole picture

The quality of the hours matters in my estimation. Personally I'd rather have a guy with some sort of operational time ( ie...airline, military, freight...etc ) vs 1500 hours of "dual given"..... its just a different type of flying. As for trainable, because a given guy was able to get a mult ticket and instrument ratings in a 172 and a seminole ( just examples ) doesnt mean he can fly a 50-70 seat jet at 350TAS... its just different. MOST guys.. learn and adapt... some dont. Hell in my UPT class we had an army helo guy who had gotten a commission in the AF .. he had 1700 hours of helo time and was instrument rated.... and washed out.. ON FLYING skills.... you just never know.

an before somebody flames me about dual given hours... while you certainly learn alot in that environment its still different.. not better or worse...just different than flying the line so to speak