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07-27-2007 | 07:13 AM
#31
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 45,129
Likes: 796
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
This is the only problem I have with aviation and why I probably won't ever go work for the airlines. Your whole career is based on a senority number. Unlike some jobs, were the most productive and hard working will get promotions, pilots are at the mercy of a senority number. You just have to sit and wait and hope that someones leaves or retires so that you can move up. Everyone is on the same playing field so it doesn't really matter if your a better employee or not. Now that airline pay and quality of life is in the dumpster it makes it harder for pilots to wait around for that next year pay. Maybe you would have been better off just pursuing general aviation.
The problem with a performance-based system is that there are VERY few things a line pilot does which can be measured objectively. About the only possible criteria are:
1) Did you pass your PC? Did you do well?
2) Did you crash any airplanes.
3) On-time performance.
Pass/fail on a PC is somewhat subjective, and trying to grade your PC performance qualititively would be very subjective (ie not fair).
Crashes doesn't happen very often, so that's not a useful measure either (but it is pretty objective
)On-time performance is very bad measure because in addition to identifying pilots who work hard and make an extra effort, it will also reward those willing and eager to commit frequent safety violations
Without objective measures all the butt-kissers and relatives of management get their pick of schedules, domiciles, equipment, upgrades, vacation...while everybody else gets hosed. There a several books about the early days of aviation which clearly document this phenomenon. This is one of those times when you need to learn from the past...
Look on the bright side...at least the seniority system ensures that some marginal pilot who's friends with management doesn't jump seniority and get YOUR upgrade.
07-27-2007 | 08:09 AM
#32
Freightmama!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,880
Likes: 0
From: 757/767 FO
haha wow thats crazy, I thought for sure if you had a family member working there, especially a spouse you were a shoe in, oh well. I would have a hard time if my wife was with a better airline than me, good for you guys.
PS My G/F probably my wife in a yera or two will probably always make more money than me so I guess its the same thing, I think its sexy when the women makes more
PS My G/F probably my wife in a yera or two will probably always make more money than me so I guess its the same thing, I think its sexy when the women makes more
The only way you are a shoe in is if you are a chick remember?
07-27-2007 | 08:11 AM
#33
Freightmama!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,880
Likes: 0
From: 757/767 FO
07-28-2007 | 02:41 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,772
Likes: 1
From: 744 CA
Neither a seniority or a merit based system would or is totally fair. I have worked in both and see the advantages of both. I will say that it took awhile when I first went to a seniority based system to get use to the idea that how well i did my job had virtually NO impact on where I could be based or what aircraft I could fly. I understand it, and you have to work that situation, but at the end of the day, it is what you make of it. I could envision much worse systems than seniority based.
07-28-2007 | 01:11 PM
#35
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,120
Likes: 0
From: Corporate Pilot
Oh Yes
SkyHigh
07-28-2007 | 01:18 PM
#36
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,120
Likes: 0
From: Corporate Pilot
The cubicle life
People often claim aviation over the "cubicle" however to me the airlines are virtually the same.
Both are known to be boring and void of hope.
Both take most of a lifetime to get anywhere.
Both see the employee as just a number.
Both require adaptation to the corporate culture.
Both have a long string of bosses, SOP's and uniforms to deal with.
Both are free from personal expression and creativity.
The seniority system keeps every ones head in the yoke and motivated to do as little as necessary to get to the next line check.
SkyHigh
Both are known to be boring and void of hope.
Both take most of a lifetime to get anywhere.
Both see the employee as just a number.
Both require adaptation to the corporate culture.
Both have a long string of bosses, SOP's and uniforms to deal with.
Both are free from personal expression and creativity.
The seniority system keeps every ones head in the yoke and motivated to do as little as necessary to get to the next line check.
SkyHigh
07-28-2007 | 02:43 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,413
Likes: 0
Interesting thread
Let's bend the talk in a different direction. There are many jobs in aviation flying planes. Maybe it's the RJ FO thing? Think Charter, crop dusting, Corporate or fractional. Not everybody is cut out or satisfied flying the same old thing. Maybe it's just time to hang up the aviation dream for a new one.
Years ago an aviation dealer told me that if I liked general aviation, I was in the wrong business. He told me the people buying the nice planes weren't airline pilots, but doctors, lawers, and business owners.
The sad thing is asking how many airline captains truely like flying, or are they in it for the bucks. It's a common problem I've seem among my military trained collegues. The one thing to give the civilian trained (and to be honest, I'm speaking of those who have been though a airline BK or two) pilots is that we are doing it because we like it. I hold nothing against my friends that have left the industry. The interesting thing to keep in mind is that most miss it dearly after they leave. I can relate to Sky High.
In closing, burn out can happen to anyone. Aviation is a fickel. Do the best you can for you and yours. Jonnyjetprop out
Let's bend the talk in a different direction. There are many jobs in aviation flying planes. Maybe it's the RJ FO thing? Think Charter, crop dusting, Corporate or fractional. Not everybody is cut out or satisfied flying the same old thing. Maybe it's just time to hang up the aviation dream for a new one.
Years ago an aviation dealer told me that if I liked general aviation, I was in the wrong business. He told me the people buying the nice planes weren't airline pilots, but doctors, lawers, and business owners.
The sad thing is asking how many airline captains truely like flying, or are they in it for the bucks. It's a common problem I've seem among my military trained collegues. The one thing to give the civilian trained (and to be honest, I'm speaking of those who have been though a airline BK or two) pilots is that we are doing it because we like it. I hold nothing against my friends that have left the industry. The interesting thing to keep in mind is that most miss it dearly after they leave. I can relate to Sky High.
In closing, burn out can happen to anyone. Aviation is a fickel. Do the best you can for you and yours. Jonnyjetprop out
So.... I have been doing the regional FO gear slinger thing for coming up on one year now. I am in my 30's, so I have had a life before aviation. I have been persuing ”The Dream" for the last 6 years. I had a bumpy road getting to where I am now. I like my job for the most part. My problem is I feel like my life is all about waiting now. I am waiting to get off reserve, waiting for 2nd year pay, waiting for upgrade, waiting for the Legacy carriers to call ect. ect.
Prior to aviation I ran my own small business. Every day I thought of things I could do to advance my business. I was free to act on my ideas and suffer the consequences if I failed or reap the bennies is I succeeded. These days I can only wait for my seniority number to go up. I can study all I want and do everything I can to be the best pilot I can be, however I won't receive a penny for it til the next year of my service begins or til enough people move on ahead of me and I can upgrade.
I am not whining about my job. Again, I do enjoy what I do. I feel as though I am wasting away waiting for the next big thing to happen and feel I have nothing to say about it.
I want to start another business and take back control of my life again. I can't wait until I save up some money so I can get out of this business. It isn't what I thought it would be. I know I can't live like this for another 30 years.
Anybody else feel this way?
Prior to aviation I ran my own small business. Every day I thought of things I could do to advance my business. I was free to act on my ideas and suffer the consequences if I failed or reap the bennies is I succeeded. These days I can only wait for my seniority number to go up. I can study all I want and do everything I can to be the best pilot I can be, however I won't receive a penny for it til the next year of my service begins or til enough people move on ahead of me and I can upgrade.
I am not whining about my job. Again, I do enjoy what I do. I feel as though I am wasting away waiting for the next big thing to happen and feel I have nothing to say about it.
I want to start another business and take back control of my life again. I can't wait until I save up some money so I can get out of this business. It isn't what I thought it would be. I know I can't live like this for another 30 years.
Anybody else feel this way?
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