Sorry if I ticked anyone off, but I will always rather have someone with 1500 hours in a Cessna then 80 hours in a sim flying the right seat of a jet with me.

Buying the 737 type is a joke too. These places advertise a super high pass rate. Why? Because people pay $8000 to have a 737 type rating on their ticket after a week of training so they can go to SWA. Do you honestly think they are ready to be a captain on a 737 after 5 sim sessions at Higher Power? I know a ton of guys and girls at SWA and they push you through the training at these places and the students don't learn a thing except that $8000 will pretty much guarantee you a type. These places would be out of business if SWA didn't require the type.

I didn't really have to "sweat blood" but I also didn't waste money at Jet U either so I guess I really lucked out. :D

Agreed, Freightpuppy. I wonder if BWJ is willing to post the full contract on here, I'm pretty sure management has some loophole to screw you out of your money.

... and people wonder why our wages at the regionals are below the poverty level. :rolleyes:

I've read through the contract quite a few times (it's not exactly some confidential document), and yes, of course there are a few clauses in there that allow Jet U to quickly void the guarantee should you screw up one too many times. Everybody in their right mind should know you can't guarantee a job like this to any shmuck off the street.

Despite what many of you think, and actually...... what quite a few people HERE think..... this place is not a joke program. If you're not up to par, you will not be graduated, and can even be kicked out. The program is tough; and it should be. There have been people who have been stuck here for close to a year because they can't pass certain parts of the program. And they're bitter as hell since they thought they'd cough up the money and walk away with a job. That's not how it works.

Like I said, it is far, FAR from a walk in the park, and you have to put your all into the training.

In the words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?" There are good 200, 500 and over 1,000 hour pilots. There are also bad 200, 500 and 1,000 hour pilots. I think too many are too quick to jump all over someone who didn't "pay his dues" by buzzing around VFR in the pattern at an uncontrolled field. I have no problem with someone who wants to learn CRM from day one, Loft, complex systems, etc. Some of these schools have great programs and the students end up logging some serious actual IFR time in a twin on cross countries, with an instructor in the back telling you that you just lost an engine, weather has just gone down at your destination, etc. Learning the crew way from day one, with checklists being pounded into your head is a great way to learn. The military has been training their low time students in a similar way for years. Another thing, don't assume that everyone in these schools is a rich kid. There are plenty older guys and gals who sweated blood in other professions to earn their money, gain valuable life experiences, and "pay their dues" in order to afford such programs.

Yeah, I know, but first of all, the 737 type rating is a fraction of the cost of JetU. You can get a type rating for $4000-$7000 or so. And YOU ARE GETTING A TYPE RATING (plus an ATP if you need it). You are actually earning a real world QUALIFICATION, recognized around our fine globe. When you walk out the door of Higher Power, you could hop in a 737 under pt 91 and fly where you like, because you are now legally QUALIFIED.

Do you get a proper CRJ type rating from JetU? You absolutely should, for $27,000. However, really, you should get it for about $6000. If you don't even get the type rating, after laying down that kind of cash, you are being taken for a ride.

"I get tired of the animosity directed at those who didn't walk in your footsteps. Get over it; times have changed."

You might as well get used to it. This animosity will not go away.

And the only thing that has changed is the standard held by a few regionals to get the job. The bar has gone quite low. It honestly boggles my mind how little is expected in newhire experience. And it's for no other reason than to keep fresh bodies in the seats rather than raise pay to attract a more well rounded candidate.

I'm just happy that I'm not a regional Captain having to deal with these guys.

All I hear from the Jet U guys is "The minimal experience to get in the seat is all I want/need to put out". It's a shame that these people don't care about reaching a higher personal level before becoming airline pilots.

It's a shame that a job as an airline pilot has become an acceptable way to enter this career.

couldn't agree more...thats one of the biggest problems with the profession is the lack pride has gone away. Now it's the lets cut as many corners as possible to get there without enjoying the process or taking into consideration the gravity of what the job entails and the value of true experience before taking the next step. It doesn't make any sense to have someone with 200 hours flying a jet. The captain is basically baby sitting but what happens when that guy that got hired with 200 hours upgrades to captain? He never learned to think for himself in an airplane. I have not seen any drawback whatsoever to my choice of waiting to start at a regional until I had an acceptable level of experience (2000TT, 600MEL, most of it's PIC) and I still consider that low time. And I did all that at a local fbo while attending a university that does not have a flight program so it just goes to show that you don't have to go to somewhere that will put you in debt to get a job. I don't owe a dime towards aviation but the experience I gained through instructing and corporate flying from the local fbo while I was in college was invaluable. Another point to consider is that when you get into a cockpit with a captain and you eventually start talking about what you did before the airlines, this route is respected. Its cool when you actually have some stories to tell rather than......I went to Jet U/gulfstream and flew the crj simulator until pinnacle/mesa/another dump hired me. But hey, you are trained in a crew environment so you must be good.

Met a guy over summer who interviewed with AE. He said the talking went fine but when it came to his check sim he blew it (2 hours of sleep is what it came down to)...AE apparently told him that instead of waiting the 6 months to reinterview, all he needed was a jet transition course and he could come right back.

So he did that. Knocked out a Citation SIC in one week with a company I worked with and went to redo the check sim. All of this was in one month.

I feel they serve a purpose for the airlines, but more as a boomerang instead of a flowthrough.

de727ups - As a moderator, it is clear to me that you need to hold yourself to a "higher personal level". I am not alone in my accomplishments in life, but I feel that seven years in the Army, a number of years serving people with Developmental Disablities, Juvenile Delinquents, Mentally Ill, struggling people, and more, very likely puts me at as high a personal level as you, if not higher. I have served my country and my countrymen. Have you?

Your post is insulting and presumptive and it represents the 90% of bitter pilots who use this forum to whine about having what is likely the greatest possible job anyone can get. Almost everyone on this forum complains about low pay and PFT. GET OVER IT! This is the way it is and will be in the future. In 5th grade economics/social studies, you should have learned that a job is an agreement to provide service for pay. By accepting your paycheck you agree to the terms of the transaction. If you don't like the pay, speak with your feet and leave. Stop whining and do something about it. I can guarantee you that this forum will not increase your paycheck.

Talking about personal levels, are you a pilot that has cleaned and pressed shirts? How about your tie - any food stains? Do you wear your hat properly? Do you even wear it at all? If you do, I am sincerely appreciative because it is the public perception of all of us that is driving pay rates down. How many times have you walked through a terminal and seen "professional" pilots wearing Dockers and a yellow, wrinkled shirt? How about hats that are pitched back and look like some kind of gangsta? Got news for you...the flying public sees that, too. And they care more than we seem to. How do you justify a six-figure salary for a slob? I can't.

When was the last time someone posted anything resembling encouragement to the new pilots? Whatever happened to comaraderie? Does anyone understand that the "management" is very happy to have us bickering amongst ourselves? That way we can't bicker at them. Good going, guys.

I went to Jet U and my parents did not pay for it. I did. I earned the money and I chose how to spend it. The arrogance of some of you guys is astounding. Just because you haven't yet developed the skill sets necessary to earn "big" money doesn't mean anyone else has to wait behind you until you do. Doesn't work that way. If you want to make money, you go and earn it. Don't wish for it and don't wish that others who have it didn't.

There is a Real, Big World out there and some of you obviously have not discovered it yet. It is full of competition and people who will take your job away from you because they want it more than you do, and flying airplanes is no exception. Want to make good money? Go work for GM...oops, they've cut their workforce by almost 50% in the last decade or two. Okay, how about construction...new home starts are the lowest in more than 12 years and values are falling fast. McDonalds is hiring.

Get your heads out of your fourth point of contact and look around you. We are supposed to be a team. When I am a Captain, I will welcome you on to my plane. Will you welcome me on to yours?

The above post obviously is written in haste of defense. I agree that PFT's are the quick and easy, and possibly least respectful of the means to get ahead. You guys are any employers dream, you'll accept substandard pay and conditions just to "fly that jet!!!" Seriously think about it. I guess you're right, people should be worried that pilots like Big Wammer are willing to step up, undercut, and provide the same service for so much less. These aren't your local city-bus. It's an airplane, people work hard, learn lessons, get the experience, to safely operate these multi-million dollar aircraft full of people to get them where they want to go. Don't undercut your own self Big Wammer, you are worth more than you give yourself credit for.

Ewfflyer, given the tone that these threads take when PFT (or supposed PFT) becomes the subject, I feel I need to state that I have a real question and am not attempting to deride or insult anyone.

Here it goes: The point I seem to get from all the back-and-forth is that I should go CFI, "earn" 1500 or so hours and then go to a Regional and get paid the same crappy wages wages that a PFT would earn. I am new to this industry, but I don't see how I can jump straight into a well-paying seat. The wages are what they are. I can remember way back when you couldn't even get a job, let alone one that pays badly. I know guys from Eastern who striked (don't know if that is a word, but sounds better than "struck) themselves out of jobs and an airline. Then Pan Am, et al.

This has been going on for a long time, and it doesn't seem to make sense to me to spend more time in 172's, Seneca's and Baron's when I can spend it in a CRJ. Just like being a CFI, my $27K and the resulting low wages are a trade for jet experience and the companies are happy to make that exchange. I won't argue that a CFI learns his/her trade by teaching, but, in truth, it seems to me that the CFI's best advantage is that someone else pays for their hours. Again, I don't mean to insult. I almost went the CFI route and would be dishonest if I said that I didn't see it that way.

Rather than all this bickering, I would like a coherent argument - other than cut off the supply of pilots which would include CFI's, not just PFT's - that would show the path to higher salaries that pilots deserve.

I am fully aware that $21/hour is not a living wage, but I don't buy into the argument that PFT's are causing the problem. I could be wrong about this, but the sense I have is that a lot of pilots have never done anything else and, thusly, have no reference point upon which to measure the profession and its wages. The fact is, almost every profession, job or occupation, requires an employee to "start at the bottom and work his/her way up." That shouldn't be news to anyone, but that seems to be the case. I don't expect to jump into the job at $75k, but I think I should be able to earn my way up to it, and I can.

If safety is the issue, then lets stick to that. Maybe there is a point to all of that and maybe it is worth discussion, but to my knowledge, no JetU guys have ever been in a crash but plenty of well-trained CFI's have. There are many assumptions being made about PFT's, but no facts are ever presented. The two guys from PCL who drove their -200 into the ground were not from Jet U. The list of mistakes they made takes up a lot of paper, but they got into the cockpit of the CRJ the traditional way: CFI, Gulfstream, etc. There are more examples against the "traditional" way than there are for it. Time will tell though. I'm sure a lot of people are watching for the first Jet U crash. Hopefully those same people aren't "hoping" for it to prove their point.

At the end of the day, looking at PFT as a safety issue may be valid but I have yet to see a quantifiable argument to support it presented in these forums. Blaming them for low wages is not a reasonable argument. As best as I can tell, all those guys who hate the PFT's are accepting substandard pay, too. Like I said in my previous post; its their choice, they don't have to.

Seriously man, lay off the Kool-Aid! It's not just about 'paying dues'. It's about having a guy in the seat next to you knowing wtf is going on. With <1000 hours you truly don't know enough about flying to occupy a seat in an RJ and be able to handle anything thrown your way or fallback on previous experience when things don't go according to plan, sim profile, or the answer isn't in the FAR/AIM. You may be a **** hot 300 hour pilot...but you're still a 300 hour pilot. You are singing the party line of the low timer. Those of us that have btdt know a little more than you. It's like thinking the sex you have at 17 was awesome...you get older and realize you were basically clueless. :cool:

I didn't like those JET U ads in the flight training magazines. It shows the picture of the C152, B1900 and RJ and compares speeds, altitudes and positions or something like that.

That's great, so when my student who flies the 152 opens that up and sees that he feels like he isn't a "real pilot".

The magazines who actually publish this **** me off just as much as JET U for making something like that.

I think people shouldnt be so quick to jump to their silver bird.

I am serious. Tell me how a guy who has spent 1500 hours in the right seat of a 172 and a Seminole knows more about a CRJ than someone who has been immersed in it for 4 months. I will grant him radio experience, but he better not have more icing experience because those planes aren't certified for it. If he does have icing experience, I would question his decision-making skills for flying into it.

I do not deny greater experience from being a CFI - I also don't include those who drove night cargo in this discussion - but it is the application of this experience that I question. He is going to get 4 weeks of ground school and about 12 sim sessions and then fly a CRJ. I have 4 months of aerodynamics, systems and FTD/MD-80 full motion sim. I know the CRJ inside and out and will know it better than any of the guys who come out of the right seat of a 172.

Again, back up your claim that a 1500 hour pilot of singles and light twins is a better pilot of a CRJ than someone who has gone through a dedicated school. The people who trained us are far more skilled than just about anyone on this forum and they trained us to very high standards and wouldn't let us go if they didn't think we can fly safely.

As a quick historical example, the horse and buggy was a reliable and well tested mode of transportation. The car came along and very few people believed in it. Can you name any horse and buggy companies that are in business now? The industry is changing and the methods of training are changing with it. Your argument that I can't be a good CRJ pilot because I don't have a ton of 172 time is not an argument: it is an assumption. A lot of guys who follow the advice of the traditionalists may get left behind and not get job because they listended to you.

In the end, airlines are hiring EVERY Jet U graduate. All of them. Right now, I am thinking I did the right thing, otherwise, instead of going to class on 10/1, I would be going to the local FBO to teach yet another newbie how to conduct a pre-flight inspection, and I just don't have time for that.

Flyboy8787 - have your friends read this thread and choose for themselves. That should answer the original question.

Maybe there is no one right or wrong way to make it into an airline job. But you can't argue with experience. A 300 hour pilot really has no business taking 50 people's lives and his company's reputation in his hands. And, BigWammer- I totally understand where you're coming from. When I was a 300 hour CFI, I would have sold my left nut to fly an RJ. But as you gain more experience, you start to realize how woefully unprepared you were. I look back nowadays, and still think I wasn't ready for my first airline gig- even with 1600TT, an ATP and 121 Dispatcher experience.

Get back to us when you've got 2000 hours...

Anyone can fly a plane, anyone can throw switches and run flows....

But CRJ sim and systems classes don't provide you with the ability to make fully informed command decisions in a 121 environment.... that only comes with experience.

CL65driver, thanks for the respectful response. I will not deny that my pucker-factor will be higher than my filed altitude when I begin my first take-off.

Maybe I will get back to you in 2000 hours...

"get there without enjoying the process or taking into consideration the gravity of what the job entails and the value of true experience before taking the next step."

Agreed. I think "enjoying the process" should be optional. To each his own. But "taking into consideration the gravity of what the job entails" is something the new breed of low time guys aren't doing. Nor do they understand "the value of true experience before taking the next step".

It's really not their fault, though. The airlines are getting what they want. Cheap, min standard, bodies, to fill a seat. Who can blame them?

"de727ups - As a moderator, it is clear to me that you need to hold yourself to a "higher personal level"."

Do you think moderators should never post but only moderate? Some guys think that. They never told me when I signed up to be a moderator I couldn't express my opinion. If you ever have a problem with any post at this site, feel free to report it. That's how the site self moderates.

"I have served my country and my countrymen. Have you?"

I've paid 58K in federal income taxes so far this year and work with kids in my spare time. There are many ways serve...

"Almost everyone on this forum complains about low pay and PFT. GET OVER IT!"

Not likey. You simply don't have enough experience in the industry to understand why the masses at this site disagree with you and yours.

This is the same discussion that's been going on since Gulfstream started years and years ago. "Why is a 1500 hour CFI a better pilot than a 300 hour PFJ grad". Well, cause he has a more well rounded background, more seasoning, and just flat out more time in the air. There is no substitute for experience in this biz.

Sure, there are good and bad pilots at all experience levels but, those examples are purely anecdotal. As was said previously, experience cannot be bought. You implicitly talked down to those building experience by "buzzing around VFR in the pattern at an uncontrolled field" This kind of flying is valuable in building experience. As a CFI, not only are you learning real stick and rudder but, you're interacting too. Sure, a you don't touch the stick much at all while instructing but when you have a student about to drag a wingtip in a gusty crosswind, damn right you'll learn to fly. Perhaps this CFI's next step is to fly checks single pilot at night, no autopilot etc etc, you've heard it all before. No matter how much money you pay them, Jet U and their ilk cannot give you the experience of going missed @ 3am and then your alternate goes zero zero. I'll take the real world experience guy over the 200 hour wonder any day, no matter how much "simulator and systems" training they've had. Your ass is never on the line in a simulator.


Well, no. Paying dues in other professions is absolutely not paying your dues in aviation, not even close.

ANY hiring method which involves the word "program" is bogus.

This isn't animosity, it is reality.

Your thinking is the exactly the kind of attitude that contributes to the race to the bottom in the aviation industry.

Hopefully by that time you would have learned a lot more. In the mean time with you current attitude, I would say that you won't receive many warm welcomes.

Good luck, (not sarcasm)

de727ups - You specifically accused me and others who go to bridge programs of having "low personal standards", and now you are accusing me of not "taking into consideration the gravity of what the job entails". Please consider what you are saying. Just because we can all hide behind our keyboards does not mean we can just spit out anything we want. You don't know me nor do you know any of the others who have gone through training that you didn't.

Your point about safety may be accurate. Time will tell but, assuming there are no Jet U crashes in the future, if ever, will you have an open mind and be willing to even consider that the schools are doing a good job?

I will say this. 2000 hours from now I will be supporting the bridge programs and I hope others will also. Hopefully that will be enough time for me to generate some respect.

"Just because we can all hide behind our keyboards"

Naw, I don't hide. http://www.jetcareers.com/content/view/65/132/


"2000 hours from now I will be supporting the bridge programs"

Have you even done IOE yet? Pretty strong thing to say for someone at your background and experience level.

Holy cow, DE, is THAT YOU????? :D

Unbelievable isnt it?, after all... he paid his dues.................The sense of entitlement is almost as sad as MESA's contract, although thats amendable, his sense of entitlement is not...........

"Holy cow, DE, is THAT YOU?????"

New hire pic when I was 29. I look older, now...

One thing people don't think about when they go to a place like Jet U is that they are paying for a regional job. Most pilots don't want to work at a regional for thier entire career and most majors/respectable employers of PROFESSIONALS require a 4 year degree. You can't buy that at Jet U. Enjoy your entire career as a regional airline pilot.

So that ugly mug got uglier.. just kidding, buddy! You kinda look like Toby from The Office!!! :D

ebl14 - I have a Masters Degree from the University of Colorado. Same old thing from you guys - you make assumptions without any basis in fact. Once again, I challenge anyone to provide factual information to back up their claims instead of just calling people names.

de727ups - Since when is a pilot job some kind of royalty? Entitlement? Being a pilot is a professional job, not an appointed position. It is a job I want and I took steps to get it.

Here's my last word on this because you guys are a waste of my time: The miserable state of affairs for pilots happened on your watch, not mine. I didn't let it get this way, you and your kind did. You all sat around with your buddies and complained about how bad things were getting while it all went down the tubes.

By the way, you pay your taxes to stay out of jail and I pay way more than you do. Lame...

de727ups - One last thing. I just read your posting on jetcareers.com and you seem like a pretty good guy. What's with the angst against PFT guys? I would have expected something more positive given all the volunteer work you do.

I can't speak for de727ups, although I don't think the criticism is personalized with respect to the PFT programs. Many of the comments come across as cynical because of the huge difference between the distorted view presented by those who are trying make a buck of training and the reality of the industry.

Programs like Jet U, ATP, and others will tell you that you too can fly a jet in mere months - which may be true but at a HUGE cost relative to the salary. If I could offer a bit of advice, take the comments in this thread (the ones from working airline pilots) as the disclosure that you'll never ever get from a pilot mill.

The two strong points I think should be considered are:

1) Cost. Learning to fly is expensive and there are many many users on this board who have leveraged the training with debt that is VERY difficult service at starting airline pay. Consider the cost over the life of the loan, the cost of lost opportunity while pay comes to parity, and the limited opportunity for advancement in the current climate, and you should see that life as a regional FO is challenging at best. Remember, the industry is clamoring for entry level positions - that's no guarantee of advancement. So many guys have hung it all out financially that a strike, furlough, or cession of operations would be catastrophic. Again these are generalizations, but I hope you can understand the cynicism.

2) Safety. As a 250 hour pilot, "you don't know what you don't know." Sure you can train to pass a light, switch, checklist style check ride, but low experience pilots don't have background to be a fully qualified and productive crewmember in a 121 operation. I feel for the regional Capt's who will fly single pilot in way to many scenarios while the new FO builds experience. This is a huge source of resentment for a lot guys, it's not personal, but the FAA and airlines are dumping a HUGE extra workload on Capts.

For all you guys thinking of going the PFT route, the only think I ask is when you get to the right seat of that jet, LISTEN to the person in the left seat. They have the expierence. Do not take it personally when they tell you something you are doing wrong. Learn. LISTEN AND LEARN. Be a sponge.

You got any advice on how NOT to pay your taxes and stay out of jail? I'd like to be able to do that. I hate taxes! :D

I seem to recall several people (Or small groups of people) that have recently brought about a huge debate on the legality of taxes. One married couple went so far as to barricade themselves in their home away from the Feds to try and prove their point. This, alas, is a topic for a completely different thread but an entirely interesting story in its own right.

U are a chick, what did you expect.

First of all, what everyone is saying that you don't seem to understand is that it is not always about the CRJ systems. It's about the three logbooks filled with experiences ranging from dealing with unexpected weather to serious MX and ATC issues. Speaking of weather, you may have noticed that humans make mistakes. Everyone makes them, and learns from them. If I'm not mistaken, that's a common definition of experience. Have I done stupid things in airplanes? Damn right I have. I've found myself alone in a single piston over a lake getting low fuel warnings. I've lost 20 knots in a single piston when I encountered ice that wasn't forecasted. Could both of them been avoided? Probably. Did I learn valuable lessons from both situations that I apply every time I ask for the thrust to be set? YES. That's what people are talking about here...the experiences you learn from, that build your pilot instinct, so to speak. Not whether or not you could build me a perfect model of the electrical system. And as for your comment basically saying screw that to lowly flight instructing, let me tell you something. Had it not been for all kinds of generous people who helped me out along the way, who gave me a chance to fly their bonanza on the weekends, to take a minute out of their day to teach me something about flying, I wouldn't have gotten anywhere. Sometimes it's not about what you can bring to the cockpit, quite frankly I don't give a damn. It's about what you can give back to aviation. You talk about the pride aviation has lost...well that's my pride. I know where I came from, I know what got me here, and I won't forget about helping others out. That's why I keep all my certificates current. CFI, CFII, MEI, CFIG. Not trying to bash or anything here, just trying to better explain what I think some people are feeling and why you're feeling some distaste. Good luck to you in all that you do, just have some respect for the work other people put into this business to get to where they are. Thanks.

Bold statement given the depth of experience on this board including the founders who are living your 'dream' by flying for major airlines. Care to elaborate? Either way, no need to post here any further. You can ask your own sky god CFI's for all you need to know.

Log Out is on the far right side of the tool bar. Good riddance. :rolleyes:

I think this goes back to the phrase "You don't know what you don't know." Ignorance really sums it up. In a few years or more, he'll hopefully see the light. It's really the view on one side of the fence to the other, and some people are trying to take the short cut of jumping over the fence, instead of having someone open up the gate to let them in when they are worthy.