No, it's not B.S...
but you would be wasting your time if you chose to do
that instead take the job at an airline.
You learn not to freak out?? This isn't Television.
Why would you freak out?
Cause you never had a real emergency?
Get real....

But ofcourse you, ehaeckercfi, would stay perfectly calm and land the airplane
safely when your rudder flies off, correct?;)

Still missing the point.
How is it wasting time? Please tell me. Any time spent in an airplane isn't wasting time, 150 or CRJ, it doesn't matter. I wish people would realize that there is more to flying than airline flying. There is more to this career than "getting to the next level".

I don't know why that would be a big deal. Nobody uses (or knows how to use) their rudder these days anyways, so it really wouldn't matter.

Why don't you just tell me then how valuable it is to watch Mr. Jones
make an S-turn and to tell Mrs. Jones how she's almost as good as Mr. Jones..

Sure...it'll help you if what you want to do is Aerial Photography in a 172 or some Traffick reporting....
But in a 121 environment? Teaching someone how to fly a single engine prop doesn't mean a lot.....
ppl think it does because it has always been the standard....but in reality it
was just an easy way to build time.....

And when the so called Sh!t hits the fan...and the infamous "captain is incapacitated"...the only thing that's gonna help you is knowing the airplane you fly....and know how to fly it like it's your B!tch....

Any time spent in ther air is good. The more time you spend "in the system" (flight following, IFR flight plans, etc...) the more knowledge you will have, regardless of what you are flying or why you are flying it.
CFI'ing isn't all S-turns. I spend most of my CFI time with instrument students, or multi-students (many times at the same time). If teaching a multi-engine student how to manage an engine failure while flying a VOR-A approach without radar vectors, with the weather down to minimums doesn't benefit you, I don't know what would. Just because you aren't in a CRJ with another pilot helpng you doesn't make the experience any less valuable.

Yes!!!!!!!

That makes me think of another point. If airlines thought the CFI was so important they would make it a hiring requirement. I know of three people that got hired to regional airlines and they do NOT have a CFI certificate.

Again, I think instructing is a great thing. Not to build time. But to share your love of aviation to somebody else. But an airline Captain asked me this question recently "Do you want to be an airline pilot or do you want to be a Flight Instructor" If you want to be an airline pilot then do airline pilot things and get on as soon as you think you are ready. You can always flight instruct on the side.

Flight instruction was neccessary a while ago in order to get the experience to go to a regional airline. Thats not the case today, so we have to be flexible and adjust with the times. Also the airline insustry is fickle. Dont waste time. The requirements could go up next week.

I agree. I have spent 19 years in the military. I understand what you are saying. military pilots are a different breed of pilots. The jobs are very different. But the basics of flying are the same. And what I am referring to is the basics of flying.

The CFI gives you more experience teaching students....
but it doesn't give make you a better pilot than someone that skipped the CFI and went straight to an airline....

Who's plane would you feel safer on....

A 1500hour pilot with 200 hours in type or a 1500hours pilot with 1200hours in type? .........

Love your avatar, that is hilarious!

You have obviously never been a CFI. There is much more to be gained than just being good at teaching. Have you ever heard somebody say that they learned the most from teaching? Guess what! Its true!

As far as your question, I would feel better with the 1500 and 1200 in type. Why? because he has 1500. Rewind 2 years. 400 hours and 100 in type. I'll take the second guy in that case.

The sound of 1200 in type sounds good hmm?
What if the 1500/1200 didnt have a cfi!
Isn't he then a bad pilot??

Everyone starts somewhere....and in the long run...it fits the F/O better to get in 121 as soon as he can!

Not doing so, is like telling someone to deny a job at ups because he has no oceanic experience ;-)
Sure...get offered a job at UPS ehaeckercfi and then deny it because you don't have experience crossing the pond!
Remember...safety first, right:D
I wouldn't want my freight in your plane in that case...

Missed my post again...:rolleyes:

Why not compare the 2 as if they were hired at the same time:
1500 total with 100 in type of 300 total with 100 in type.
Which one sounds better now? It all depends on how you compare them.

Honest answer: They can both be awesome pilots or they can both suck ballz...all depends on their skill.

I've never been so bored...and I'm in cincinasty too...

You are 100% correct.
My point is that somebody with more time has had more opportunities to be exposed to more things. The truth is that there is no concrete way to gauge how well a pilot will do. Higher time just means that the pilot has had more of an opportunty to be exposed to different things.

Oh and BTW, if you are bored, back to back Southpark at 9:30 ET :D

The damn hotel took HBO off the list:eek:

Law and Order on:D

I take issue with this blanket statement. A 152 and a jet are subject to the same laws in the same way a canoe and a cruise ship are subject to the same laws. The whole universe is subject to the same physical principles.

Additionally, CFIing may be a good learning experience (as ANY flying will be) but most CFIs are doing it to "build time" and really don't put the effort in to get much out of it after moving a primary student or two through the certificate.

I know what you mean. I wish more people would do it, and be good at it, not just to build time.
Sure, I did it to build time, but I put my heart and soul into it for the two years I did it. After I sent 9 students to their checkrides (all passed), I decided I had done my duty, and moved on.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but aren't you like 19 years old or around that age range?

You were a low-time hire at PSA correct? While most of us would applaud your determination, and most noticeably, your ability to pass a 121 training program at such a young age, aren't you missing out on just being a youth? No college, no nights out with friends drinking, hanging out, no real fond flying memories... just the thought of waking up in some hole of a town in the armpit of America, while your friends are nursing hangovers in Pysch 101, and planning weekend trips up to the mountains in the FBO's twin.

From what I've read, and seen, most of the 300 hour wonders are younger folks. 20-23 years old. They aren't really in it for the love of flying, or to be an aviator, they simply want to be an airline pilot. Forget about really learning to fly, and gaining those fond memories that actually made you an aviator. You know those white knuckle approaches into Nome, Barrow, or Kotzebue, Alaska at night with icing in an old, battered bush plane, spend 2 years doing that, build over 1800 hours flying the bush, by yourself, in the winter. Or the magnificent sunsets from a twin Otter on floats flying inter-island flights in the Virgin Islands, spend a year and a half doing that, building over 1000 hours of seaplane time and learning the ins and outs of flying an machine on and off the surface of the sea. How about having significant time teaching people to fly novice an complex aerobatics, where a pilot will really learn what it's like to fly by the seat of you're pants and use the stick, not needle-dick it around like some RJ.

People are so inclined to get to the airlines without ever experiencing flying at all. Is that really what you would call and aviator?

Not me.

I personally applaud the guys that stick around CFIing for longer than 200 hours. They aren't driven by the thought they may get to tell the hottie blond at the bar they fly jets for a living, but teaching the future of aviation. It's a noble task many are too short sided to even understand.

Just my 0.02

And I agree with you. Most of my instructors throughout my flight training have been 50+ year old guys that started flying in J-3 cubs. They teach because they love flying. I have had very few youg 20 somethingyear old fresh out of college instructors.

A person should flight instruct because the yenjoy teaching. not to build time on somebody elses dime. Like I said befroee Instructing can be a career and a good one. But it is a totally different career from being an airline pilot. Military flying is toatally different as well. Military pilots don thav eto abide by part 121 or part 91 depending on the operation they are doing. In Iraq, I saw pilots laning planes and helicopters where ever they wanted.

Great Post
 

Dude.......Amazing

I understand
 

I understand that it is important for those of us who wasted years as a CFI to attempt to find meaning in those lost years. However, if your goal is to be an airline pilot then 1000 hours of touch and goes in a 172 really doesnt do much.

Perhaps your confidence gets a needed boost but as far as being a benifit to a future flying 121 jets it really is meaningless.

Skyhigh

Instructors
 

Currently there are more instructors than there are student pilots. We don't need anymore instructors and those who can get by without having to become a CFI are doing the rest a big favor.

There are hardly enough students to go around as it is.

Those who can do. Those who can not flight instruct.


SKyhigh

This Post
 

[QUOTE=chignutsak;241052]Huh? CFI time is wasted time? You've GOT to be frickin kidding me. Oh yeah, I forgot. This is the age of ADHD, of instant gratification. Don't earn your knowledge, which incidentally may save your life some day. Just take the quickest shortcut you can. Go upgrade as soon as possible at the bottom feeder of the month.[/QUOTE]

This post should be engraved in a brass and mounted on a concrete base for all to see as an example of the right stuff for a successful airline career.

In the end no one cares how you got there just get in while the gettin is good and get out as fast as you can.

SkyHigh

Lets see you take a.... lets see... stearman, T6, anything like that around the pattern solo and not kill yourself.
Those who can, do. Those who cannot, die.
Like has been said before, there is more to flying than flying a bus with wings.

hhhmm
 

Atp made me realize how much i want to instruct at an FBO rather than ATP. I’ve come across 2 of the last 4 instructors at the SAC location that just used students to build time. There was one guy never showed up, unless he was flying and always talked about how his girl was Albanian and started saying "chow" a lot. He never instructed just passed off his students to other instructors. Long story short he's at SKW (which is he wanted to go) and complained all through training. Another guy, lets just call him "roger" gave myself and other students an hour of instrument ground, made us pick up these blue instrument currency booklets, and said "just read this", and that was it. He's now at xjet and there problem.

My point is, after all the negativity of a lot of the instructors i have been around. I sure as hell don’t want to instruct, because I don’t want to be like them! So if a student has negative experiences with his/her CFI. What makes them want to instruct. I can tell you right now, it’s not to get students through it’s to build time! They don’t want to sit there and be bitter like the guy who trained them, I sure don’t. But im going to give it the old college try!

Not at the airlines
 

Pilots at the airlines really don't need to know anything about flying small planes.

Years ago I was a CFI in ANC and almost daily guys would come in to get checked out who flew the big stuff for the airlines. They wanted to be able to rent piper warriors so they could fly themselves around to take in the sights.

Hardly one in ten would make it through even a simple check out in one session. Most gave up after 6 hours of training. One guy was told that he really should go through the entire private pilot curriculum over again.

Flying for the airlines really has little to do with flying.

SkyHigh

Oh an lets no forget
 

Oh, and lets not forget that much of the rest of the world only gets a hundred or so hours in small planes before moving on to the bigger stuff.

Companies like Lufthansa, Cathay and JAL have cadet programs. Their pilots have hardly any small plane time and they seem to do just fine.

Other places like the military also take low time guys and put them strait into transport category planes too.

It is a nice stroke to the ego to think that we are accomplishing something by having the ability to land a taildragger, but in reality it means nothing to an airline career.

SkyHigh

NOt saying it does. Just saying there is more to flying than flying a bus. The best pilots in the world haven't flown anyting bigger than a Bonanza. I don't know why you feel the need to talk down to guys who decided to flight instruct for a while before going to the airlines. Maybe they (I) actually enjoy FLYING amd wanted to spend some time doing it.

YOur comment about "those who can, do......" was COMPLETELY out of line, and completely false. Get a life.

i've had about 15 instructors since starting my private to completing my commercial...all due to them either leaving for something better (the only ones that didn't leave were 50+ yearsold and just enjoyed instructing) When I started my training the minimums were around 1500TT/500ME and now being as low as they are i get the feeling that some pilots that had to actually get these hours are kind of bitter/angry at the situation of how easy or less stringent on getting hours.

It's pretty much summed up on APC that we ALL AGREE TO DISAGREE...some say instruct and really learn what it means to be a pilot others say get in as fast as you can with the way things are going right now.

With the 15 instructors that i had 14 of them were there to just get hours (all age 23 -28)...as a private student at that time, i thought thats how it just goes, meaning i'm not sure if anyone deliberatly gets a CFI because they really want to instruct...they do it so they can build the hours. (or at least based on my experience)

At the airport I work at and from family friends and family equating to : 3
captains (AA,CAL), 4 major FO's (AA, UAL, CAL), 1 Reg. Cap (Xjet), 5 Reg. FO's (AE, Xjet, Republic), and an HR guy at AA....they all say get in as fast as you can...and the only ones that aren't saying that are pilots that had to/or chose to get the hours...

and to agree with skyhigh they all say that flying cessnas didn't have a lot of translation into a RJ...saying that the training will get that all done

Exactly my point! Everyone these days is plagued by the "forget the stupid Cessnas, aerobatics, float flying, bush flying, no autopilot/GPS flying, because it doesn't translate into RJ flying, and only God knows I need to get into that RJ cockpit before my 22nd birthday, and accept that conditional offer from Delta before I'm 26 so I can have almost 40 years them and completely lose sight of why I ever wanted to get into this profession because I'm so busy worrying about contracts, furloughs, upgrades, ALPA"

You can choose to be an airline pilot and all that it entails, and in which case "get in" as quick as possible.

Or... you can choose to be an aviator. You can actually learn how to fly an aircraft, experience aviation and the science behind this art, and not get "there" as soon as possible.

Folks are so focused on just "getting there" they lose sight of what they're even doing to get there. In the end, it just becomes a job, enjoy it while it's still not.

I agree wholeheartedly! This is a very unique time in aviation and yes to an extent jumping in at the first opportunity that comes your way can be a good thing. However, don't forget to enjoy the scenery along the way. This industry can chew you up and spit you out a bitter person in no time. Make your decisions wisely and think long and hard about what you want out of life.

Is it a good QOL or a quick upgrade? Are you confident that 1000 TPIC will get you into the airline of your dreams or are you being delusional? Are you willing to commute or do you want to live in your home town? Would you be willing to stay at regional A if your ideal regional stops hiring or the economy takes a crap? Just a few thoughts.

Personally, I'm trying to enjoy the ride. I've got a long career ahead of me but I can confidently say I've had a blast up to this point and the risks I've taken have paid off well. Who knows what will come next, but I'm a positive person, so it hopefully won't be that bad.

Also, if you want to have some fun and gain some great experience before hoping down to a "better" regional, head up to Alaska. Spend a few bucks and walk into every regional operator in Anchorage and Fairbanks that hires FO's (Penair, Frontier Flying, Era, Alaska Cargo Express come to mind) and ask to speak to the Chief Pilot (in a suit with resume if you are really serious).

You'll have a blast and within a year will be highly competitive for a good job or you might find you like the bush flying so much, you never leave.:)

Just my $.02, your mileage may very, results not typical, satisfaction not guaranteed.

Checko

"they all say that flying cessnas didn't have a lot of translation into a RJ"

It's not so much about a 172 flying like an RJ, but about the experience of teaching and things you learn about the system working as a CFII. Instructing is hardly a waste if you look at if from the standpoint of it making you a better pilot, overall.

The experience of being a CFI will pay off two years down the road when one upgrades and is forced to fly with the next 300 hour newb who just got off IOE.

I'd love for your to ask your CFI's, once they are new RJ Capts, if their time gaining experience as a CFI was a "waste of time". Or if they still feel like the "get there as fast as you can at any cost" guy is the guy they want to sit next to.

What cracks me up about this age old argument is, that in general, the pro-low time guys are the ones just starting out and the anti-low time guys are the Capts who have been in the biz for a while....

If I had gotten into the Industry five years ago, as opposed to last year, you would have found me flying the Bush in Alaska, absolutely no doubt about it...

Flying for the Airlines then, for me at least, is bitter-sweet. While I'm following one dream of flying the Jets, I've lost another - one that I am thinking more and more that I was born for. Just prior to getting my CFI's last year, and subsequently an immediate job in the right seat of an RJ, I had made a trip up to Alaska to scope out the country that was calling to me. Almost didn't come back.

But I did...and so I guess I have to wait until I can get myself aboard one of the several carriers that fly out of ANC...

To all those who are on the fence about chasing this side or that of Flying, give it a second thought. Though I wouldn't trade where I am now for anything, I would have said the same thing being a Bush Pilot LoL...just a matter of circumstance I suppose.

Yes, seniority may be everything, but like a few posters earlier on this thread stated, it's not everything.

Best of luck and fly safe!

Long Road
 

I was a full time CFI for several years followed by 6 more years as a part 135 Alaskan Bush pilot and contract forest service pilot. Then went on to corporate jet, medevac and the regionals.

I didn't want to do all that, I had to. The market was different back then. On one of my earliest trips in the 757 a check airman asked me about my background. After telling my story he was impressed and exclaimed that I had a "good background". Good for what? was my response.

What good is all that stuff? It didn't help me make my dreams come true so really it all it was a waste of time and obstacle to my dreams. HR departments don't care if you can land a Cessna 185 on an 800 foot gravel bar. The sim can't tell that you had thousands of hours in a Cessna or 300 hours total time. You don't gain a single thing to have flown a more than thousand hours as a single IFR pilot multi-engine piston over the cascades.

15 years ago my peers and I would have sawed off a finger if we thought it would have done any good. Anything to escape the 5 to life sentence we were serving towards an uncertain future.

In the end the only thing that matters is part 121 PIC time as fast as you can get there. The sooner the better. Anything less is to handicap yourself.

SkyHigh

Isnt that to be expected though?

Well apparently the ultimate goal wasn't worth getting there as soon as possible right. Maybe you'd still be there.

I don't understand?
 

I was laid off from my LCC 757 job. It was to be my last rung on my way to my goal. I ended up falling a bit short and I didn't make it to my ultimate goal. All my experiences added up to zero in the end.

The bottom line is to get there as fast as you can. The industry is handing out CRJ jobs to almost anyone now. Anything less than taking the first possible opportunity in a jet is doing yourself a huge disservice.

The current hiring trend will not last much longer. It would be terrible to be stuck on the out side lamenting how just a short time prior you could of had an RJ job but decided to become a CFI instead.

SkyHigh

I was just wondering what you older guys think about my situation. I am at UND (I do not need comments on that part) I have instructed for over a year and have had my MEI since May. I was hired by Mesaba in May also but had to finish school which will be this Dec. I took the Job and have a Dec 31 class date. I have 450 total and130 Multi and will probably get another 70 multi by Dec and I am 21. I am wondering what you guys think of my situation because I am one of those 20 something year olds with under 500 hours.

Next comment is about becoming an instructor. If you have to ask the question should I go to the airlines or build time being a CFI to go to a “better” airline then you should go to the Airline or something else because your possible students deserve better. I have seen too many instructors here not care about their students because they were going to a big bad regional. I personally am glad I have my MEI because you do learn a lot teaching multi students. This does not mean you have to do it to become a good pilot because it depends and you and you alone. You can instruct for 1000 hrs and you sucked at the beginning you might still suck at the end. Same with lower timers you might be a good pilot after you get your commercial. A lot depends on your training and what has happened to you in the time you have. This is my two cents. Take it for what it is worth because I am not in the industry yet.