agree fully

and people that are saying that its "dangerous" because of the low time pilots... where the heck are the accidents from these dangerous pilots that are rated to fly these planes? seriously come on people get a grip 727ups you are a complete joke by the way all you have to say is rant and rave about everything saying that post doesnt belong on this site and whatnot ... seriously? who are you? you dont even play passengers ? gg

end of story texaspilot you the man

Believe me, im not defending everyone with low time.... I know most low timers are dangerous without even knowing it... But you should never say that EVERYONE is dangerous. Inexperienced maybe, but that doesnt meant that they are not fundamentally good. Believe me, I agree with you, nothing substitutes good practical experience...I just dont like when people collectively group you because of what they have seen in the past. There are ALWAYS exceptions...

Instead of bashing these low timers at the airlines who do pass ground school, why not try to help them and mentor them so that they can be great captains when their time comes? :D

I know you are, I was just expanding on your comment.... sorry, I just reread it and didnt mean it to sound negative....:D

And de727ups I totally understand what you mean about the babysitting thing and I definitely respect that point of view. But dont you think that age and maturity level plays a part in how much you have to "babysit" them?

Now on the flip side do you really think that someone who has 1000 hours, most of which are in a single engine teaching students is REALLY going to do that much better than someone who has 500 hours and less dual given, but spent some time refining their own knowledge and skills? I am not provoking an argument, I am really interested to see what you think....

Cape Air has recently implemented a First Officer program. Guys and gals are coming in low-time, riding right seat in a 402 and getting to learn the ropes of the company and the system. Some of them are close to their ATP mins, and others still have a few years left in that right seat. Some of them are awesome and are already captain-ready. Some of them are HORIBBLE and should have their tickets revoked immediately. The difference I've seen comes down to this: the ex-instructors with 400+ of dual given are the ones who can think on their feet, fly smoothly and touch down gently. The ones with little or no instructing experience are the ones who embarrass themselves on the radio, can't climb AND turn, crumble when issued a hold and their brains turn into pork-chop sandwiches when anything outside of a basic clearance is issued.
They handle the yoke like their strangling a rabid squirrel and their touchdown is anything short of a controlled crash. Some days I think to myself "I'm not getting paid for dual given".
There are definitely times when their presence is a hinderance and not a help, but to the best of my ability I try to peacefully lead them towards the path of righteousness. Honestly, I envy them: where was my opportunity to get twin time with only 400 hours total? I had to do it the old fashioned way: 1300 hours of dual given and have my ATP written done BEFORE the interview.

Stryker made an interesting statement:
That pilot who spent time "refining their skills" will have nowhere near the library of experience that an instructor, having student after student put them in unusual situations, will. A relatively low-time pilot isn't going to stray too far outside of their comfort zone with regards to handling situations, therefore they just arent going to get AS MUCH experience as a CFI will.
If I had my way:

1. All high school graduates would have to complete 4 years of military service before continuing with college or trade.

and...

2. The issuance of a commercial certificate would coincide with the issuance of the CFI ticket, and 500 hours of dual given would be required to "validate" the commercial ticket and allow the applicant to exercise the privileges.

No argument required. You'll see.

You definitely wont get an argument from me on that one... My 5 years was one of best things that ever happened to me. If it werent for the military, I NEVER would have seriously considered professional aviation as a career... Not to mention nothing builds character like a few near death experiences or the gas chamber in boot camp.. haha

What on earth are you trying to say ??? Would you please re-post your idea in complete sentences that somewhat make sense.

Your quote, "you don't even play passengers ?"

I don't agree with you that De727Ups is a total joke. I have to agree with him that lower minimums is a time bomb just waiting to detonate.

We at UPS have a similar problem at our ANC base. Since it is the least desirable and consequently our most junior base there was the possibility that there would not be a lot of Int'l experience being displaced there. Thus, UPS made the hiring requirement of overwater, widebody time and 1000 hrs of Turbine PIC time for new hires destined for ANC. I realize this is apples and tangerines but at least UPS isn't lowering the bar. I also realize that attrition at the regional level is picking up now that the majors are hiring, but why would you hire 10 years ago and require 1500 hrs and now only a couple hundred...because economics and supply and demand are trumping safety.


FF

TxP,

You make a valid arguement. What I think you're trying to say is that with a cleaner slate it is easier to train a pilot and they make better employees.

I feel otherwise and offer in contrast that Southwest hires mostly fighter pilots straight from the military and many only have 3000 hrs when they are 30 years old. That's not a diss to either SW or the military, but I don't think the majority of military fighter pilots that got hired with Southwest have much more than 3000 hrs. I think SW feels that 3000 hrs of fighter time is quality time equal to 10,000 hrs of airline time. It's hard to fault SW and military pilots, but to me there's no substitute for experience

It's true that the "10000 hr" pilots probably are jaded at this point in their career, but as much I'd like to think I know-it-all, and seen-it-all, every year I reflect how much I've learned over the year as a result of experience. Specifically, when I had 3000 hrs, I knew only a fraction of what I know now, 11,000 hrs later.

Again, you're argument presents valid points, I offer one of difference,

FF

i dont get it, why is asa lowering mins and skywest is same as always? the pay is better at asa and they have similar equipment

I am a very low time pilot (400 hrs) and I see the problem as this: Learning the basic mechanics of learning to fly are fairly simple. The difficult part is learning the decision making skills. I choose to take as many "gear monkey" flights as I can to build experience since I have a full time job and can't instruct. Gaining the experience is the key, whether its mentoring from an experienced captain (as I'm doing) or instructing. However, I make sure that when I'm sitting right seat, I remain humble and take all of the lessons from the flight that I can.

Smartest cop I've seen to date. I'll buy you a donut if I ever run into you in the concourse.

Decision making is what only comes with experience. You can't buy it at ERAU, and a jet bridge course? Ha! Forget that. You learn decision making in those times when the stuff hits the fan and you face a challenge. Decision making is not figuring out a hold or landing pattern entry - that carries very little danger, really. It involves decisions with consequences - whether folks live or die - and there's not a lot of time to mull over the options.

scenario: You're cruising at 21,000 feet and picking up ice like crazy. Do you turn on the anti-ice and charge on, climb, descend, or make a 180?

If it's your first time in the ice and you're wigging out at it building up on the windshield wipers, chances are you didn't know how to find a way out while studying the weather package.

Thank God the market forces haven't created a single-pilot RJ. :eek: