High Failure Rate at Eagle 20%
 

;)Just got through training and IOE. The ERJ training department is all screwed up.

They are trying to redo their training program for the ERJ for wont be ready for another 9 months or so per managment. Several low time and several high time pilots failed their checkride-- NO second chance-- they were released.

It is a shame that pilots hopes are dreams are destroyed by a bad training program. Don't get me wrong--Some instructors are real instructors while others are just medical or over age ex captains with a chip on their shoulder ready to kill off new recruits if they can't learn their technique instead of standard profiles

This is why I stay out of it for the time being. I am going to serve my stretch as a flight instructor then come on when I think I am really proficient at it. It just isn't worth the gamble. And the regionals have no problem burning through 250-500 hour pilot applicants. It doesn't cost them very much to have you come down and struggle with it and then leave. My guess is a few grand per failure. The low mins thing is not all it's cracked up to be as far as young pilots are concerned.

Eagle was better when I was there. We had 2 of our pilots fail their orals and they got some help and did them over. That really sucks due to the aviation record of failing out. Don't get me wrong if someone is out boozing everyday and they don't put in the time and fail then they should be released but if someone is working hard and putting in the time then I htnk they should get an extra change. I thought Eagle had a 3 strike policy.

I'm a new hire with a Jan 21st class date. I'm hoping for the ERJ out of ORD. For the sim sessions do you get assigned one instructor or do you rotate instructors? And is the checkride done by the instructors or do they bring in special check airmen? Thanks in advance for the headsup.

Um, it's a lot more than that. Aside from the physical cost of training you (teachers, materials, sims, etc) there's the opportunity cost as well. That's another 6 weeks that you have to wait to fill a seat, plus interviewers that you have to pay to interview a new candidate. Few grand? Few tens of grands maybe.

Having the "I'm expendable" attitude will only hurt bargaining for higher wages and QOL in the future. You're worth just as much to them as they are to you, so don't short sell yourself. If they didn't want or need you, they wouldn't have hired you. It's not a "hell, let's hire 10 250s to give them the chance and see if a couple of them pass".


Also, I wasn't aware that AE training was so intense? I know people that have gone through without any problem whatsoever. Maybe not 250 hour guys, but certainly lowish time guys.

You should get ERJ out of ORD without any problem.You will rotate instructors.Some of the sim instructors are qualified as check airman as well.Before the check ride itself, you will do a phase check. Its the SAME thing as the check ride.

Congratulations for making it through training! I personally would like to see the resource that shows Eagle's 20% washout rate. Additionally, I would be hesitant to blame it entirely on the training department. It is true that things can be somewhat rough after changes are made and take hold. But I'm a bit of a cynical person, and would first look at the study habits and attitudes of those who fail out before judging the company. Enjoy Eagle, I hope to see you on the line soon!

Hiring new pilots is never cheap. Washouts hurt the company more then help it financially. They're a loss of money; an investment with a negative return (although it is a good thing for the safety of the flying public to washout those who do not meet standards). Even if hiring new applicants was cheap, it still wouldn't make financial sense.

I commend you for committing to flight instructing for a period of time before applying for the airlines. Any extra experience you can gain before entering the 121 world will only make you a better candidate and increase your chances for success in training.

Spot on IMO. (and it's not just the Purdue camaraderie talking)

They failed one checkride and got the boot? This sounds kind of like we're not getting the whole story here.

Yes, but some operations have been known to plan for attrition (the military in fact) when you have an inconsistent recruit. With low time pilots, its impossible to assure that all will adapt to the challenges of the environment (more so than those who have spent time in turbine and other commercial operations). It would not surprise me to see Eagle "overhire" by 10-20% assuming that there will be 10-20% attrition during training. In that case, there is no opportunity cost, just the cost of training.

Eagle can't hire enough people right now, let alone over-hire by 10-20%. I'm sure washouts are expected, but that doesn't change the fact that any washout is still a financial loss. The opportunity cost in that case would be protecting the safety of the flying public at a financial loss. There's always an opportunity cost, even if they could over-hire.

There are crappy instructors in every training operation.

The current crop of pilots entering the 121 workforce, however, also contains some real winners who think they are owed a job because of the current environment. These same folks don't work hard and think simply showing up ensures them of a job. If these folks survive to the line I hope the captains they fly with (the same ones who entered the airlines 2001-2004) b-slap some reality into them.

I'm glad airlines haven't lowered their standards while lowering their minimums.

What do you mean all screwed up and how are they going to redo it? From what you're saying it just sounds like a classic case of lowtimeitis. I thought eagle had one of the best training programs kind of surprised by this.

I guess it is eye-watering for some pilots when they realized that they are expected to quickly master procedures, maneuvers, and knowledge of a company and aircraft they've never seen.

Unlike the local FBO or flight school, airline training courses aren't set-up to spoon-feed a trainee. For low experience pilots, it can be a huge challenge.

As always MASTER:

Aircraft Systems
Limits
EP checklist memory items
Callouts
Profiles and maneuvers
Fleet SOP
Flight Operations Manual

If you nail the above items early in training, you'll have some processing power left over to absorb technique and work on rough spots. Airline training is about filling the required FAA training square and getting a pilot onto the line ASAP (at the lowest cost). This pace can be overwhelming to the new guys who aren't expecting it.

Remember, airline training is the exact opposite of the training you're familiar with. When you're working on your ratings, you're paying them. They owe you the resources to pass.

When you go to an airline, they're paying you. They expect you will find the resources to pass.

Man, you should sit in on day one of Mesaba indoc to hear the way it should be done. They bluntly tell you that they WANT you to pass and that if you do your part, they'll do everything in their capacity to help you pass. This includes extra one-on-one training, sim observations, mentoring, etc.

Our sim costs around $600-$800 an hour to operate, depends on who you ask. Say $700/hr x 32 hours, that's $22,400 alone per crew on training in the sim. That excludes 6 weeks of ground school, materials, etc. I've heard from someone in our training dept. that the average cost to put a new guy thru is between $40,000-,$50,000.

So YES, it does cost them if you wash out. If your management doesn't realize it, it's their fault. Finally, kudos to Mesaba who doesn't even have a training contract in light of the immense cost per pilot. (The washout rate at Mesaba is around 5%, btw)

Ok maybe my estimate is off. For it to get to that level the applicant would have had to make it all the way through the program, but nevermind. But how long is it before that dropout gets to try again? Let's compare. Use typical rates for salary of an FO in the estimate, say $20k year one and $32k year two. I wonder if the washout would ever return.

More than a 5% washout rate sounds pretty fishy to me. And I think they know what they are doing as it approaches to 15-20%. They seem to have decided the loss of revenue from not filling seats is worse than the money thrown out in mistraining a number of (unfortunately) not quite ready applicants. I assure you money is what talks, and you have to assume they know what they are doing if the washout rate is so high.

There is a lot more expense to an airline for training a new hire over and above hourly pay.

For over-simplfication, call it opportunity cost. The missed opportunity in getting a pilot on the line and producing revenue, the missed opportunity of simulator and classroom space, the admin requirements to train and support the pilot, etc.

I agree that airlines want new hires to succeed in training, on the line, and as employee. The reality is that there is always some attrition due a mismatch of interest, ability, or effort.

But for the CRJ
 

The CRJ at Eagle has over a 99% pass rate. The program style is what the ERJ is going to. My class of 4 (low time of 585/440) to high time of a retired F16 pilot all passed just fine.

That's good, and it would appear a given training department would be reluctant to draw in an applicant without a certain hope for viability through training. I still wonder if it is smart to go rushing in with only 250 hours if you are one of them however.

it's hard to believe that instructors in the eagle training house is out to fail new hires. Everyone in the training department is very helpful, all you have to do is ask!! Its always easy to point the finger at someone else ....this maybe the case here for the new hires that washed out! :rolleyes:

Except for the smallest airlines, most training departments don't have a say in the review of individual applicants - they train whomever the company sends them.

As far as the wisdom of rushing in with 250 hours - that is the point of much debate here lately. A 250 hour pilot doesn't necessarily lack potential, but clearly lacks experience which can bite a new pilot as they jump into the reality of airline operations. There are expectations of a new hire pilot that are much higher than those found in initial training at an FBO or university.

Is it do-able? Of course, many pilots over the past several years have jumped through that hoop. Like anything, there will always be those at the left shoulder of the bell curve that measures success - my guess would it's those with minimum experience.

You're doing the same thing I have planned to do. After accumulating 750-1000 hrs TT, my plans are then to apply, not before. Flight training is an investment in which I plan on getting gugobs of ROI!!!!:D



atp

Does AE even hire people at 250? Does anyone for that matter?
I know there is a bit of exaggeration here, but this is half of their requirement.

Yep I personally know pilots hired at Eagle through bridge programs with 195 hours....141 pilot. Also several 235 hours pilots as well. ALLATPS pilots.

yikes!
 

Thats just plane scarry!:eek:

The ATP students, I am sure, paled in comparison to the 141 trainees. Very different training there...

"The ATP students, I am sure, paled in comparison to the 141 trainees."

Just to make it clear. You just dissed ATP. I had to look up a word, though.

oucheeeeeez

dissing ATP
 

what again is wrong with dissing ATP? not saying anything for my oppinion, cuase I didnt personaly go there. But one hears stories around the campfire...:D

The only time I used ATP was when I opted for their $295 ATP prep and written. I would not recommend doing any flight training as many of the instructors have bad attitudes.

and when i did my written prep, i read the book in cruise for a four day, had it done in 3 days, reviewed again on the 4th....took the test, omitted the performance, and was rewarded with a piece of paper saying i barely passed....but barely is passing enough.

If that is the case, the 'team' concept is empty verbage. As a check airman, I always took time to make sure the pilots were ready for training and as a "team" we would go through the syllabus.

Any failure and the Senior first went to the check airman to find out 1) why the airman failed 2) if there were any difficulties and if so why the airman was put up for the ride. The first one to dance was not the airman but the check airman.

Yes, the expect the applicant to do the work but to say they expect you to find the resources is a sign there is something amiss with the company culture. And considering all the resources that have been expended to get someone to an oral or a sim check, it sounds like p*ss poor management and a huge waste of time, money and resources.

For full disclosure. I am an ALLATP pilot. A former instructor with 560/440 when I applied to Eagle. I enjoyed my time at ATP and actually took a paycut to come to Eagle. Although every plane at eagle has an air conditioner which helps even out the lower pay versus sweating my rear off in a Seminole.

I rather have you sweat your rear off in a seminole for a few more years before coming to a 121 airline.

agreed
 

I have spilled my share of sweat in the archers and Seminoles here in AZ for a year now. 1100/300 multi. still on the low side of hours but I cant put a value on the experience I have gained while "sweating my rear off".

atp has an awesome program for the atp written. i went in there cold at 8am and did the program until 5pm and took the test and got an 85.

What is so special about the program at ATP anyways, regarding the ATP written? What methods are they using to get you ready to pass the test so quickly?

Anybody who relys on a flight school to make them great pilots is retarded.

Instead of having a 1000 question bank, through their program they've reduced it to 300 or so. You spend the whole day "studying" them and take it when you're ready. Really good pass rate.

So what areas do they omit? I've pretty much dropped the B1900/727 performance sections so far.