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Old 12-26-2007, 07:25 AM   #1  
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Default High Failure Rate at Eagle 20%

Just got through training and IOE. The ERJ training department is all screwed up.

They are trying to redo their training program for the ERJ for wont be ready for another 9 months or so per managment. Several low time and several high time pilots failed their checkride-- NO second chance-- they were released.

It is a shame that pilots hopes are dreams are destroyed by a bad training program. Don't get me wrong--Some instructors are real instructors while others are just medical or over age ex captains with a chip on their shoulder ready to kill off new recruits if they can't learn their technique instead of standard profiles
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Old 12-26-2007, 07:36 AM   #2  
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This is why I stay out of it for the time being. I am going to serve my stretch as a flight instructor then come on when I think I am really proficient at it. It just isn't worth the gamble. And the regionals have no problem burning through 250-500 hour pilot applicants. It doesn't cost them very much to have you come down and struggle with it and then leave. My guess is a few grand per failure. The low mins thing is not all it's cracked up to be as far as young pilots are concerned.
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Old 12-26-2007, 07:48 AM   #3  
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Eagle was better when I was there. We had 2 of our pilots fail their orals and they got some help and did them over. That really sucks due to the aviation record of failing out. Don't get me wrong if someone is out boozing everyday and they don't put in the time and fail then they should be released but if someone is working hard and putting in the time then I htnk they should get an extra change. I thought Eagle had a 3 strike policy.
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Old 12-26-2007, 08:16 AM   #4  
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I'm a new hire with a Jan 21st class date. I'm hoping for the ERJ out of ORD. For the sim sessions do you get assigned one instructor or do you rotate instructors? And is the checkride done by the instructors or do they bring in special check airmen? Thanks in advance for the headsup.
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Old 12-26-2007, 08:58 AM   #5  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubdriver View Post
This is why I stay out of it for the time being. I am going to serve my stretch as a flight instructor then come on when I think I am really proficient at it. It just isn't worth the gamble. And the regionals have no problem burning through 250-500 hour pilot applicants. It doesn't cost them very much to have you come down and struggle with it and then leave. My guess is a few grand per failure. The low mins thing is not all it's cracked up to be as far as young pilots are concerned.
Um, it's a lot more than that. Aside from the physical cost of training you (teachers, materials, sims, etc) there's the opportunity cost as well. That's another 6 weeks that you have to wait to fill a seat, plus interviewers that you have to pay to interview a new candidate. Few grand? Few tens of grands maybe.

Having the "I'm expendable" attitude will only hurt bargaining for higher wages and QOL in the future. You're worth just as much to them as they are to you, so don't short sell yourself. If they didn't want or need you, they wouldn't have hired you. It's not a "hell, let's hire 10 250s to give them the chance and see if a couple of them pass".


Also, I wasn't aware that AE training was so intense? I know people that have gone through without any problem whatsoever. Maybe not 250 hour guys, but certainly lowish time guys.
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Old 12-26-2007, 09:51 AM   #6  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unitedflyers1 View Post
It is a shame that pilots hopes are dreams are destroyed by a bad training program. Don't get me wrong--Some instructors are real instructors while others are just medical or over age ex captains with a chip on their shoulder ready to kill off new recruits if they can't learn their technique instead of standard profiles
Congratulations for making it through training! I personally would like to see the resource that shows Eagle's 20% washout rate. Additionally, I would be hesitant to blame it entirely on the training department. It is true that things can be somewhat rough after changes are made and take hold. But I'm a bit of a cynical person, and would first look at the study habits and attitudes of those who fail out before judging the company. Enjoy Eagle, I hope to see you on the line soon!

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And the regionals have no problem burning through 250-500 hour pilot applicants. It doesn't cost them very much to have you come down and struggle with it and then leave. My guess is a few grand per failure. The low mins thing is not all it's cracked up to be as far as young pilots are concerned.
Hiring new pilots is never cheap. Washouts hurt the company more then help it financially. They're a loss of money; an investment with a negative return (although it is a good thing for the safety of the flying public to washout those who do not meet standards). Even if hiring new applicants was cheap, it still wouldn't make financial sense.

I commend you for committing to flight instructing for a period of time before applying for the airlines. Any extra experience you can gain before entering the 121 world will only make you a better candidate and increase your chances for success in training.

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Um, it's a lot more than that. Aside from the physical cost of training you (teachers, materials, sims, etc) there's the opportunity cost as well. That's another 6 weeks that you have to wait to fill a seat, plus interviewers that you have to pay to interview a new candidate. Few grand? Few tens of grands maybe.

Having the "I'm expendable" attitude will only hurt bargaining for higher wages and QOL in the future. You're worth just as much to them as they are to you, so don't short sell yourself. If they didn't want or need you, they wouldn't have hired you. It's not a "hell, let's hire 10 250s to give them the chance and see if a couple of them pass".


Also, I wasn't aware that AE training was so intense? I know people that have gone through without any problem whatsoever. Maybe not 250 hour guys, but certainly lowish time guys.
Spot on IMO. (and it's not just the Purdue camaraderie talking)
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Old 12-26-2007, 09:52 AM   #7  
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They failed one checkride and got the boot? This sounds kind of like we're not getting the whole story here.
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Old 12-26-2007, 09:54 AM   #8  
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Yes, but some operations have been known to plan for attrition (the military in fact) when you have an inconsistent recruit. With low time pilots, its impossible to assure that all will adapt to the challenges of the environment (more so than those who have spent time in turbine and other commercial operations). It would not surprise me to see Eagle "overhire" by 10-20% assuming that there will be 10-20% attrition during training. In that case, there is no opportunity cost, just the cost of training.
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Old 12-26-2007, 09:59 AM   #9  
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Yes, but some operations have been known to plan for attrition (the military in fact) when you have an inconsistent recruit. With low time pilots, its impossible to assure that all will adapt to the challenges of the environment (more so than those who have spent time in turbine and other commercial operations). It would not surprise me to see Eagle "overhire" by 10-20% assuming that there will be 10-20% attrition during training. In that case, there is no opportunity cost, just the cost of training.
Eagle can't hire enough people right now, let alone over-hire by 10-20%. I'm sure washouts are expected, but that doesn't change the fact that any washout is still a financial loss. The opportunity cost in that case would be protecting the safety of the flying public at a financial loss. There's always an opportunity cost, even if they could over-hire.
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Old 12-26-2007, 10:14 AM   #10  
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There are crappy instructors in every training operation.

The current crop of pilots entering the 121 workforce, however, also contains some real winners who think they are owed a job because of the current environment. These same folks don't work hard and think simply showing up ensures them of a job. If these folks survive to the line I hope the captains they fly with (the same ones who entered the airlines 2001-2004) b-slap some reality into them.

I'm glad airlines haven't lowered their standards while lowering their minimums.
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