AirWillie

What do you mean all screwed up and how are they going to redo it? From what you're saying it just sounds like a classic case of lowtimeitis. I thought eagle had one of the best training programs kind of surprised by this.

HSLD

I guess it is eye-watering for some pilots when they realized that they are expected to quickly master procedures, maneuvers, and knowledge of a company and aircraft they've never seen.

Unlike the local FBO or flight school, airline training courses aren't set-up to spoon-feed a trainee. For low experience pilots, it can be a huge challenge.

As always MASTER:

Aircraft Systems
Limits
EP checklist memory items
Callouts
Profiles and maneuvers
Fleet SOP
Flight Operations Manual

If you nail the above items early in training, you'll have some processing power left over to absorb technique and work on rough spots. Airline training is about filling the required FAA training square and getting a pilot onto the line ASAP (at the lowest cost). This pace can be overwhelming to the new guys who aren't expecting it.

Pilotpip

Remember, airline training is the exact opposite of the training you're familiar with. When you're working on your ratings, you're paying them. They owe you the resources to pass.

When you go to an airline, they're paying you. They expect you will find the resources to pass.

gredenko

Man, you should sit in on day one of Mesaba indoc to hear the way it should be done. They bluntly tell you that they WANT you to pass and that if you do your part, they'll do everything in their capacity to help you pass. This includes extra one-on-one training, sim observations, mentoring, etc.

Our sim costs around $600-$800 an hour to operate, depends on who you ask. Say $700/hr x 32 hours, that's $22,400 alone per crew on training in the sim. That excludes 6 weeks of ground school, materials, etc. I've heard from someone in our training dept. that the average cost to put a new guy thru is between $40,000-,$50,000.

So YES, it does cost them if you wash out. If your management doesn't realize it, it's their fault. Finally, kudos to Mesaba who doesn't even have a training contract in light of the immense cost per pilot. (The washout rate at Mesaba is around 5%, btw)

Cubdriver

Ok maybe my estimate is off. For it to get to that level the applicant would have had to make it all the way through the program, but nevermind. But how long is it before that dropout gets to try again? Let's compare. Use typical rates for salary of an FO in the estimate, say $20k year one and $32k year two. I wonder if the washout would ever return.

More than a 5% washout rate sounds pretty fishy to me. And I think they know what they are doing as it approaches to 15-20%. They seem to have decided the loss of revenue from not filling seats is worse than the money thrown out in mistraining a number of (unfortunately) not quite ready applicants. I assure you money is what talks, and you have to assume they know what they are doing if the washout rate is so high.

HSLD

There is a lot more expense to an airline for training a new hire over and above hourly pay.

For over-simplfication, call it opportunity cost. The missed opportunity in getting a pilot on the line and producing revenue, the missed opportunity of simulator and classroom space, the admin requirements to train and support the pilot, etc.

I agree that airlines want new hires to succeed in training, on the line, and as employee. The reality is that there is always some attrition due a mismatch of interest, ability, or effort.

stillageek

The CRJ at Eagle has over a 99% pass rate. The program style is what the ERJ is going to. My class of 4 (low time of 585/440) to high time of a retired F16 pilot all passed just fine.

Cubdriver

That's good, and it would appear a given training department would be reluctant to draw in an applicant without a certain hope for viability through training. I still wonder if it is smart to go rushing in with only 250 hours if you are one of them however.

meeko031

it's hard to believe that instructors in the eagle training house is out to fail new hires. Everyone in the training department is very helpful, all you have to do is ask!! Its always easy to point the finger at someone else ....this maybe the case here for the new hires that washed out!

HSLD

Except for the smallest airlines, most training departments don't have a say in the review of individual applicants - they train whomever the company sends them.

As far as the wisdom of rushing in with 250 hours - that is the point of much debate here lately. A 250 hour pilot doesn't necessarily lack potential, but clearly lacks experience which can bite a new pilot as they jump into the reality of airline operations. There are expectations of a new hire pilot that are much higher than those found in initial training at an FBO or university.

Is it do-able? Of course, many pilots over the past several years have jumped through that hoop. Like anything, there will always be those at the left shoulder of the bell curve that measures success - my guess would it's those with minimum experience.